From dlbahr at hotmail.com  Sat Sep  1 07:44:09 2007
From: dlbahr at hotmail.com (dl bahr)
Date: Sat Sep  1 07:44:55 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
In-Reply-To: <011501c7ebdb$8c992380$a5cb6a80$@net>
Message-ID: <BLU105-F36BF89189300F74B845DDFDECF0@phx.gbl>


<tee hee> <LOL> <giggle, giggle>
Yes, when all else fails send in the clowns.
Hey it has got to be better than Sonny Bono, and Arnold Schwartznager.
Minnesota at least chooses a little more interesting and unusual brand of 
celebrity politicians.
Al Franken, who knows?  maybe he can do the job.  At least he is willing to 
give it the old Minnesotan heave ho.

After Jesse Ventura, nothing will seem unusual to me in MN politics.

I must give a plug for MN's newest congresswoman.  She is one sharp MN 
cookie and we are proud of her representation.  I hope this does not offend 
Sistersara who is more knowledgeable all things politcal and historical--but 
we like Amy Klobuchar in our household.
Eat your heart out Mr. Colderon.
Cheers,
Lesley A P Bahr
Minnesota at Large

>From: "J. David Coldren" <jdavid@coldren.net>
>Reply-To: Alumni Chat List <alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu>
>To: "'Alumni Chat List'" <alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu>
>Subject: RE: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:30:43 -0500
>
>Once again, Sistersara, I stand in awe of the information you must have
>stashed away in your brain and fileing cabinets. I had no idea there was a
>connection between Franken, Ornstein, and Friedman. Certainly I've never
>heard Ornstein or Friedman disclose their close relationship. But I'm
>actually looking forward to Senator Franken: maybe he can provide the
>leadership the Democrat majority will need to solve all the problems he's
>been belittling others about over the years. I mean, when we're facing
>serious problems, it's time to send in the clown.
>
>In humorous solidarity,
>
>
>J. David Coldren '65
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: alumni-chat-bounces@w3.antioch.edu
>[mailto:alumni-chat-bounces@w3.antioch.edu] On Behalf Of Sistersara@aol.com
>Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 2:21 AM
>To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
>Subject: Re: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
>
>
>In a message dated 8/30/2007 8:32:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>jdavid@coldren.net writes:
>
>Oh and  why is it that liberl or progressive focused media sources die off
>like Air  America post Al Franken when the right-wing stuff goes on and on?
>Mean  sells. By the by, Franken had several conservatives/libertarians as
>regular  contributors to his show Norm Ornstein is the only one I can think
>of this  second, but he also interviewed Hailey Barbour and had standing
>invites for  interviews with a host of right of center worthies
>
>
>Of interest -- Norm Ornstein and Al Franken went to High School together,
>thus have been good friends since the early 1960's.  There were several
>others
>in that group -- including Tom Freidman of the NYTimes.  Freidman  stayed
>here
>and went to the U of Minnesota, Ornstein to another school in the  East, 
>and
>
>Franken went to Harvard, but they kept their high school rock band  
>together
>
>for several summers, playing local gigs.
>
>Franken started working at Dudley Riggs Cafe Espresso -- a comedy club
>while
>he was in High School, and during the summers while he was in college, he
>continued to work there.  He did stand up, but he also worked with the
>writer
>for the Cafe, who otherwise was the arts and culture reporter for the
>Minneapolis Tribune.  Later, Dan Sullivan became drama critic for the
>NYTimes.  I
>think you give him a little credit for teaching Franken to  write comedy.
>Franken's friend Orenstein also tried his hand at comedy  writing, but he
>also did
>lighting.
>
>If things go well, and in Jan 2009 we swear in a Senator Al Franken, then
>they will be back together in DC, and I suspect perhaps for small group and
>
>private consumption the old troup of Franken, Orenstein and Friedman might
>start
>performing again.  Orenstein can be very funny -- though he does straight
>man, but the usual arrangement among these three is that Franken and
>Orenstein
>gang up on the illiberal, Friedman.
>
>
>
>************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
>at
>http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>_______________________________________________
>Alumni-chat mailing list
>Alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
>http://w3.antioch.edu/mailman/listinfo/alumni-chat
>Visit http://www.Antioch-College.edu today!
>
>_______________________________________________
>Alumni-chat mailing list
>Alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
>http://w3.antioch.edu/mailman/listinfo/alumni-chat
>Visit http://www.Antioch-College.edu today!

_________________________________________________________________
Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger 
Café. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_SeptHMtagline1

From davidallenusa at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 08:08:49 2007
From: davidallenusa at yahoo.com (YAZZ ALLEN)
Date: Sat Sep  1 08:09:33 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lawry quitting immediately? 
In-Reply-To: <20070831232641.B7E41615E6B7@w3.antioch.edu>
Message-ID: <231134.24342.qm@web52008.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Sept. 1, 07
   
  Hi from Yazz Allen (YazzAllen@Yahoo.Com)!
   
  The Antioch Alumni Assn. press release stated, it seemed, that "Steve Lawry is quitting" (meaning LEAVING) "immediately."   It mentioned his announcement of late July that we would continue at Antioch until Dec. 2007.
   
  Is Lawry leaving immediately?  Has he aleady departed?  Does this mean there will be no "lame duck" period from now until December 2007?
   
  The press release was not date, and the reference to "information from Toni Murdock" was not documented, no date given.  The "official" Antioch-College.Edu website contains NO announcement Lawry's departure date got changed, that he's leaving right away.
   
  What's going on?
   
  Is the press release from the Alumni Assn. (giving undserved praise to Dr. Lawry, whose brief tenure at Antioch was delivered by the same folks who hired Dr. Toni Murdock, present Antioch U. Chancellor, and also tried to close Antioch College down completely July 2008) just badly written, or has something NEW happened regarding Lawry's final time at Antioch.
   
  He's still in the driver's seat, and it's important for us all to know what's happening regarding him, when he's actually leaving, etc.
   
  I used to be a public relations pro, and I'm here to tell you,  good press releases make things crystal clear.  The Alumni Assn. press release about Dr. Lawry, posted yesterday (Aug. 31, 07) on the Antioch Alumni chatline, wasn't crystal clear.
   
  Best,
  Yazz (David Roger) Allen '66



 
    ---------------------
  Contact Yazz Allen directly via email at YazzAllen@Yahoo.Com, mail to 644 Shrewsbury Commons Ave., #239, Shrewsbury PA USA 17361...
  See my pro movie actors photos and recent credits by visiting WWW.IMDb.Com and inputting "Yazz Allen" in home page search box, then going to my home page for photos.  On the photo page, hit IMDb RESUME box/icon for recent credits/ resume details.
   
  "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world.  Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead (1901 - 1978)


       
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
Check out fitting  gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
From Sistersara at aol.com  Sat Sep  1 09:04:19 2007
From: Sistersara at aol.com (Sistersara@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep  1 09:05:04 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
Message-ID: <d2d.158ed0e8.340abd53@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/1/2007 6:44:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
dlbahr@hotmail.com writes:

I hope  this does not offend 
Sistersara who is more knowledgeable all things  politcal and historical--but 
we like Amy Klobuchar in our  household.
Eat your heart out Mr. Colderon.
Cheers,
Lesley A P  Bahr
Minnesota at Large



I too like Amy Klobuchar very much.  Her campaign last year was  masterful -- 
she won, in case people don't know, by 20 points.  Assuming  she stays in 
that range -- she is currently polling 58% approval, that will give  her the 
latitude she will need to eventually lead in a slightly more edgy way on  some 
things.  Before running she served as Hennepin County District  Attorney, winning 
three elections, the last one with no Republican  Opponent.  A little "irony" 
always helps -- after 9/11 she was on the State  Joint Terrorism Task Force, 
doing all sorts of planning, and one problem they  got was the men's restroom 
at Northstar Crossing at the Airline Terminal  Building.  For ages it had been 
a "place" where those in need of quickie  BJ's could get some action, but 
after they fenced off most of the terminal from  the public without tickets -- 
the locals who made a little money turning tricks  in the restroom couldn't 
easily get in.  The Airport Cops had to really  work at it to make sure security 
kept them out as required.  Anyhow --  Stings in that particular bathroom have 
been going on for several years, and  Amy's old Taskforce helped plan them.  
Apparently they made 41 arrests in  the 2nd quarter of this year, which would 
include Craig -- and it would be Amy's  old office that would have prosecuted 
Craig.  I was hoping Craig would stay  around, because I wanted Amy to walk up 
to him on the Senate Floor and tell him  that she was the Former Hennepin 
County Prosecutor who had to help set up the  sting operations there, but they 
were required by Homeland Security and the  Department of Transportation.  There 
is true irony in something like the  Craig Story being about unintendend 
consequences of efforts to catch  terrorists.  



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
From dramamama at nyc.rr.com  Sat Sep  1 09:17:43 2007
From: dramamama at nyc.rr.com (Robin Rice Lichtig)
Date: Sat Sep  1 09:18:26 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] war on terror
Message-ID: <001301c7ec9a$7b43ad20$71cb0760$@rr.com>

Latest story in the ongoing war on terror: A friend just returned to NYC
from San Francisco. In the airport in CA she was in a long line, nervous
about missing her flight. Finally, when she got up to X-ray and security,
she was nabbed. Her lip balm wasn't in a ziploc bag! She had to leave the
line and go find a ziploc bag, which fortunately an enterprising someone was
selling for $10 apiece nearby. So, lip balm secured in the required manner,
she got back at the end of the long line and this time fortunately (barely)
made her flight. I'm thinking I should buy stock in ziploc bags.

- Robin '64  

**************************************
"The future is here but it's unevenly distributed." -- Robert Heinlein



From pas0705 at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 09:17:44 2007
From: pas0705 at yahoo.com (Laura Fathauer)
Date: Sat Sep  1 09:18:28 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lawry quitting immediately? 
In-Reply-To: <231134.24342.qm@web52008.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <914359.98290.qm@web63912.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Yes- lawry has "left the building" so to speak.
Effective immediately Andzej Bloch is "Chief Operating
Officer", but not "acting" or "interim" president. He
is doing what the second-in-command does when the
first-in-command isn't there. 

That's about all that is known at the moment.

-l



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sat Sep  1 11:05:07 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (alanbenard (alanbenard@pobox.com))
Date: Sat Sep  1 11:05:50 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Toni Murdock must go.
Message-ID: <f774c1bce4793cefeca5e14113502424@antiochians.org>

If Steven Lawry was terminated, the locks were changed at the development office and Lynda Sirk was made the sole conduit for information promised to the Alumni Board by Antioch University Board of Trustees, then I believe that the chancellor is violating the spirit, if not the letter, of last weekend's agreement. 

She is an employee serving at the pleasure of the members of the Board of Trustees. If she is acting counter to the Board's wishes, she must be removed from office. 

Alan Benard, '92


From davidallenusa at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  1 12:19:12 2007
From: davidallenusa at yahoo.com (YAZZ ALLEN)
Date: Sat Sep  1 12:19:56 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lawry's departure
In-Reply-To: <20070831232641.B7E41615E6B7@w3.antioch.edu>
Message-ID: <429118.53550.qm@web52003.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Sept. 1, 07
   
  Hi from Yazz Allen (YazzAllen@Yahoo.Com)!
   
  It appears Antioch College President Dr. Steve Lawry has left his job suddenly and under unexpected circumstances.
   
  This is in some ways an eerie parallel to the similar departure of Dr. James Dixon '38, who had also submitted his resignation in 1975 and was awaiting the agreed upon departure date from his 16 years as Antioch College President [1959-75]) when Dixon was unexpectedly fired by the Antioch Board Of Trustees led by then Chairman Larry Pearl '55 who convened an "emergency" BOT meeting at the Dayton OH airport, and with proxy votes, fired Dixon because Dixon had fired his (Dixon's) subordinate, Dr. Frank Shea, then "Provost" of Antioch College.
   
  Dixon was "suspended" and Shea was reinstated.
   
  Dixon never returned to or was reinstated to the office of Antioch President, which he was scheduled to leave anyway.
   
  The firing of Dr. James Dixon in 1975 (and not the Strike of 1973) is often accounted as the end of the "golden age" which Antioch College enjoyed from the 1950's through the 1970's as a nationally prestigious and highly ranked USA college.   
   
  The sudden and unexpected departure of Dr. Steve Lawry from Antioch could have serious consequences for those seeking to keep Antioch College open without interuption.
   
  If open warfare and contentious interaction between Antiochians breaks out over this,  Dr. Lawry and his departure could the be center of damaging problems for Antioch.
   
  Lawry was not at Antioch long, and was at best a fencesitter during his short time as Antioch presidency.  It would be a mistake to make him a martyr.  
   
  The Antioch University trustees seem on their way to agreeing to keep Antioch College open without interuption with an announcement of this possibly at the Oct. 25 AU BOT meeting set to occur in Yellow Springs, Ohio.
   
  A big war over Lawry's departure could hurt this.
   
  For those committed to keeping Antioch College open without interuption, it might be best to accept Lawry's departure quietly.  
   
  The main thing for us all to concentrate on is keeping Antioch College open without interuption.


 
    ---------------------
  Contact Yazz Allen directly via email at YazzAllen@Yahoo.Com, mail to 644 Shrewsbury Commons Ave., #239, Shrewsbury PA USA 17361...
  See my pro movie actors photos and recent credits by visiting WWW.IMDb.Com and inputting "Yazz Allen" in home page search box, then going to my home page for photos.  On the photo page, hit IMDb RESUME box/icon for recent credits/ resume details.
   
  "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world.  Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead (1901 - 1978)


       
---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
 Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. 
From jdavid at coldren.net  Sat Sep  1 13:13:35 2007
From: jdavid at coldren.net (J. David Coldren)
Date: Sat Sep  1 13:16:31 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] inclusion
In-Reply-To: <C2FE1A57.310E%theodora@imbris.com>
References: <20070831232641.B7E41615E6B7@w3.antioch.edu>
	<C2FE1A57.310E%theodora@imbris.com>
Message-ID: <022401c7ecbb$6e8d6c30$4ba84490$@net>

Pam,

Thanks for your email which--after saying I was simply uninformed--can be
fairly summed up in " We have the worst health care in the world amongst
industrialized nations, and the most expensive.."

You're wrong. But, don't

-----Original Message-----
From: alumni-chat-bounces@w3.antioch.edu
[mailto:alumni-chat-bounces@w3.antioch.edu] On Behalf Of Pam Olsen
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:20 PM
To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
Subject: [Alumni-chat] inclusion



> From: alumni-chat-request@w3.antioch.edu
> Reply-To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:26:41 -0400 (EDT)
> To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
> Subject: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 6, Issue 92
> 
> While the liberals' first recourse seems to be to seize the
> awesome power of the State to pass a law reigning in personal behavior or
> confiscating a portion of a person's income in order to redistribute it to
> likely voters, conservatives prefer to remove government red tape and
> regulations from the backs of individual entrepreneurs and to allow the
> central government primacy only in certain areas like national defense, a
> federal justice system, and other powers actually enumerated in the
> Constitution. 


Ok, David, you've roused my ire now!  I'm going to assume that in some
areas, you are simply uninformed, since i respect your knowledge and brains
overall, even if you are that nasty word--conservative.

I recently wrote my soon to be retired senator Larry Craig because I was
furious when I learned that a medication that would cost me $350 a month if
I bought it at the local pharmacy would only cost me $46 from a so-called
Canadian pharmacy.  why?  Because "A generic has been available
internationally for several years," said the company I ordered from.

So I asked dear Mr. Craig how it can be that generics that are available
worldwide aren't available here?  This was about the time that I found a bat
on my front porch that my cat had killed and I was waiting to find out if it
was rabid.  If so, I was facing paying $1000 for a series of vaccinations.
I could not believe that we live in a country that would not provide rabies
vaccinations as a public health service!  How much would that cost the
government, about $20,000 a year?  THere is a sad story on the internet
about a four year old girl who died because her parents, who found a bat in
her room,  didn't see any evidence of a bite (which you can't see because
their teeth are so small, they don't make visible wounds).   What do you
want to bet they didn't want to spend $1000.

Anyway, to continue:  I received a letter back with, as usual, the party
line (they don't listen anymore, they lecture), they need all that money for
research, and besides, we have to support a free market.  We can't set
limits on what drug companies can charge.

So I wrote him back (haven't sent it, and now it's moot), "So, if you won't
limit what drug companies can charge, how do you justify limiting what
health care providers can charge?"

Do you realize that Medicaid pays less than half the "usual and customary"
fee that providers charge?  Medicare, I understand, pays even less.  I
haven't bothered filling out their 18 page application to find out for sure.
These entitities don't "negotiate" these fees, they simply set them. Plus
they require rediculous levels of documentation.

And Managed Care?  They suck us into their networks with various
manipulations:  if we're not in it, we can't bill them electronically, thus,
we wait much longer to get paid.  Or they send the check (if they pay
anything at all) to the patient (who typically forgets to forward it).  And
of course if we're in it, then they control what we are paid.  United Health
Care started us at our usual and customary in 95. The next year, they
lowered it $10.  The next year, another $10.  That was 9 years ago.  We
haven't had a raise since.  My office expenses have tripled in that time.
In a big city where people have money and are sophisticated about mental
health, this probably doesn't make a huge difference.  In rural areas where
people do not have money and depend upon Medicaid or insurnace to pay, it's
a very big deal.  If I want to serve them, I have to be in those networks.

I have a small practice.  But even I have over 50 companies in my computer.
And new ones come down the pike every month.  And I get to fill out all the
same paperwork to be "credentialed" by every single one of them, every two
years.  Nevermind that I am trained and licensed, that's not enough.

I could go on and on.  The rediculous amount of time we spend on the phone
getting preauthorization (which has NEVER in 10 years, been refused--it is a
bunch of silly busy work!).  Or trying to get the right menu to get the
right human to ask a simple question.  I spent 30 minutes on the phone just
the other day just to find the right human to point out to them that they
had preauthorized several sessions before sending me a letter telling me
that they had preauthozied only one, and I'd have to apply two weeks ahead
of time to get a second onw!.

It is a rediculously inefficient system that costs the consumer (in addition
to the providers) billions and billions every year, all in the name of a
free market.  A free market for everyone except providers.  Like we're the
ones ripping people off.

We're not the one ripping people off.  The drug companies are ripping people
off.  The insurance companies are ripping people off.

Providers are just trying to make a living and help people at the same time.

You might think Kucinich is way left of left, but he is the only candidate
who gets it when it comes to health care.  Conservatives can't buffalo the
country anymore with this nonsense that we have the best health care in the
world.  We have the worst health care in the world amongst industrialized
nations, and the most expensive.


I become increasingly convinced that Big Business will never do what is in
the best interest of the people.  Big Business will only do what helps their
bottom line, screw the people.

The interesting thing is, the social changes that Progressives want all
eventually happen because THEY'RE THE RIGHT THING TO DO!   But in this
country, only after Big Business have made their billions, and are forced to
do them (like health care for all, alternative energy, more fuel efficient
cars, less air pollution, etc.)

Rain storm coming in, got to unplug!

Pam





_______________________________________________
Alumni-chat mailing list
Alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
http://w3.antioch.edu/mailman/listinfo/alumni-chat
Visit http://www.Antioch-College.edu today!

From jdavid at coldren.net  Sat Sep  1 13:28:15 2007
From: jdavid at coldren.net (J. David Coldren)
Date: Sat Sep  1 13:31:12 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] inclusion
In-Reply-To: <C2FE1A57.310E%theodora@imbris.com>
References: <20070831232641.B7E41615E6B7@w3.antioch.edu>
	<C2FE1A57.310E%theodora@imbris.com>
Message-ID: <022501c7ecbd$7bb37100$731a5300$@net>

Pam,

Thanks for your message which -- after telling me that I was "simply
unformed" -- can be fairly summed up in: "We have the worst health care in
the world amongst industrialized nations, and the most expensive."

You're wrong. But don't worry in a few short months, you'll have Hillarycare
and we can all relax and enjoy the benefits of that. Between now and then
you're welcome to use Canada's socialized healthcare system since it's so
muich better than ours. I feel sorry for the thousands of Canadians who are
"simply uninformed" and come to the United States for "the worst health care
in the world." Gosh, maybe their Surgeon General needs to put up a sign at
the border: "WARNING: You are about to enter the United States, which has
the worst health care in the world. The studies by our government and by the
United Nations that show that access to surgeries and other life-saving
treatments is far worse than in the United States? You may just ignore them.
Right-wing propaganda."

In solidarity,


J. David Coldren '65




-----Original Message-----
From: alumni-chat-bounces@w3.antioch.edu
[mailto:alumni-chat-bounces@w3.antioch.edu] On Behalf Of Pam Olsen
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:20 PM
To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
Subject: [Alumni-chat] inclusion



> From: alumni-chat-request@w3.antioch.edu
> Reply-To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:26:41 -0400 (EDT)
> To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
> Subject: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 6, Issue 92
> 
> While the liberals' first recourse seems to be to seize the
> awesome power of the State to pass a law reigning in personal behavior or
> confiscating a portion of a person's income in order to redistribute it to
> likely voters, conservatives prefer to remove government red tape and
> regulations from the backs of individual entrepreneurs and to allow the
> central government primacy only in certain areas like national defense, a
> federal justice system, and other powers actually enumerated in the
> Constitution. 


Ok, David, you've roused my ire now!  I'm going to assume that in some
areas, you are simply uninformed, since i respect your knowledge and brains
overall, even if you are that nasty word--conservative.

I recently wrote my soon to be retired senator Larry Craig because I was
furious when I learned that a medication that would cost me $350 a month if
I bought it at the local pharmacy would only cost me $46 from a so-called
Canadian pharmacy.  why?  Because "A generic has been available
internationally for several years," said the company I ordered from.

So I asked dear Mr. Craig how it can be that generics that are available
worldwide aren't available here?  This was about the time that I found a bat
on my front porch that my cat had killed and I was waiting to find out if it
was rabid.  If so, I was facing paying $1000 for a series of vaccinations.
I could not believe that we live in a country that would not provide rabies
vaccinations as a public health service!  How much would that cost the
government, about $20,000 a year?  THere is a sad story on the internet
about a four year old girl who died because her parents, who found a bat in
her room,  didn't see any evidence of a bite (which you can't see because
their teeth are so small, they don't make visible wounds).   What do you
want to bet they didn't want to spend $1000.

Anyway, to continue:  I received a letter back with, as usual, the party
line (they don't listen anymore, they lecture), they need all that money for
research, and besides, we have to support a free market.  We can't set
limits on what drug companies can charge.

So I wrote him back (haven't sent it, and now it's moot), "So, if you won't
limit what drug companies can charge, how do you justify limiting what
health care providers can charge?"

Do you realize that Medicaid pays less than half the "usual and customary"
fee that providers charge?  Medicare, I understand, pays even less.  I
haven't bothered filling out their 18 page application to find out for sure.
These entitities don't "negotiate" these fees, they simply set them. Plus
they require rediculous levels of documentation.

And Managed Care?  They suck us into their networks with various
manipulations:  if we're not in it, we can't bill them electronically, thus,
we wait much longer to get paid.  Or they send the check (if they pay
anything at all) to the patient (who typically forgets to forward it).  And
of course if we're in it, then they control what we are paid.  United Health
Care started us at our usual and customary in 95. The next year, they
lowered it $10.  The next year, another $10.  That was 9 years ago.  We
haven't had a raise since.  My office expenses have tripled in that time.
In a big city where people have money and are sophisticated about mental
health, this probably doesn't make a huge difference.  In rural areas where
people do not have money and depend upon Medicaid or insurnace to pay, it's
a very big deal.  If I want to serve them, I have to be in those networks.

I have a small practice.  But even I have over 50 companies in my computer.
And new ones come down the pike every month.  And I get to fill out all the
same paperwork to be "credentialed" by every single one of them, every two
years.  Nevermind that I am trained and licensed, that's not enough.

I could go on and on.  The rediculous amount of time we spend on the phone
getting preauthorization (which has NEVER in 10 years, been refused--it is a
bunch of silly busy work!).  Or trying to get the right menu to get the
right human to ask a simple question.  I spent 30 minutes on the phone just
the other day just to find the right human to point out to them that they
had preauthorized several sessions before sending me a letter telling me
that they had preauthozied only one, and I'd have to apply two weeks ahead
of time to get a second onw!.

It is a rediculously inefficient system that costs the consumer (in addition
to the providers) billions and billions every year, all in the name of a
free market.  A free market for everyone except providers.  Like we're the
ones ripping people off.

We're not the one ripping people off.  The drug companies are ripping people
off.  The insurance companies are ripping people off.

Providers are just trying to make a living and help people at the same time.

You might think Kucinich is way left of left, but he is the only candidate
who gets it when it comes to health care.  Conservatives can't buffalo the
country anymore with this nonsense that we have the best health care in the
world.  We have the worst health care in the world amongst industrialized
nations, and the most expensive.


I become increasingly convinced that Big Business will never do what is in
the best interest of the people.  Big Business will only do what helps their
bottom line, screw the people.

The interesting thing is, the social changes that Progressives want all
eventually happen because THEY'RE THE RIGHT THING TO DO!   But in this
country, only after Big Business have made their billions, and are forced to
do them (like health care for all, alternative energy, more fuel efficient
cars, less air pollution, etc.)

Rain storm coming in, got to unplug!

Pam





_______________________________________________
Alumni-chat mailing list
Alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
http://w3.antioch.edu/mailman/listinfo/alumni-chat
Visit http://www.Antioch-College.edu today!

From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sat Sep  1 15:53:01 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (hopeless (debra_good@yahoo.com))
Date: Sat Sep  1 15:53:44 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Antioch College President Will Continue to Work with
	A
In-Reply-To: <3c06bbd6acc650dec4ecab13f30a3ce5@antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <078402ad5f3d4e220ac57648c319f181@antiochians.org>

Does anybody know how long Lawry will be working with the AB?  Until December 31?  Longer?  Shorter?

Deb '83

>ANTIOCH COLLEGE PRESIDENT STEPS DOWN; WILL CONTINUE TO WORK WITH COLLEGE ALUMNI BOARD AND REVIVAL FUND
>Contact: Rick Daily, (720) 318-5880  ? press@antiochians.org
>
>President Steven W. Lawry has stepped down as the President of Antioch College effective immediately. This announcement came from Antioch University Chancellor Toni Murdock. Lawry will, however, be working with the Antioch College Alumni Board to ensure the uninterrupted academic operation of Antioch College as an institution of higher education with a tenured faculty.
>
>?We have appreciated working with Steve, his many good ideas and his efforts in working with us in developing plans for the revitalization of the College,? commented Nancy Crow, President of the Antioch College Alumni Board. ?Steve has been a strong advocate for a College with its own Board of Trustees and a clearer relationship to the University.?
>
>?We welcome the opportunity to work with Steve. There is a daunting amount of money to raise,? added Rick Daily, Treasurer of the Alumni Board. ?We are going to keep Antioch College open and restore it to its proper place of prominence among American colleges.?
>
>On July 26, 2007, Lawry had announced to the Antioch community his intention to resign from the presidency effective December 31, 2007. He had made this announcement in light of the decision of the University Board of Trustees to suspend operations at Antioch College as of June 2008.
>
>Since the suspension was announced, Antioch College alumni across the country have raised more than $8 million in cash and pledges to maintain continuous operations with a tenured faculty at the 155-year-old Yellow Springs, Ohio institution. The Alumni Board?s plan proposes the establishment of a separate board of trustees to oversee Antioch College.
>
>During the weekend of August 25-26, the Alumni Board presented its plan for keeping Antioch College open to the University Board of Trustees. The University Board of Trustees approved a resolution to work with the College Alumni Board to allow it to demonstrate, by the October 2007 Board of Trustees meeting, the financial and academic feasibility of the College Alumni Board?s proposal for the continued operation of the Antioch College.
>
>The Alumni Board is continuing with its fundraising efforts and development of a full business plan for the College. As part of this effort, it is working with the university to utilize and augment the full resource of the College?s Development Office.
>
>For additional information on the Antioch College Alumni Association and its Revival Fund, visit www.antiochians.org.
>
>
>###


From fkraus at antioch-college.edu  Sat Sep  1 15:39:13 2007
From: fkraus at antioch-college.edu (Fred Kraus)
Date: Sat Sep  1 15:53:53 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 1
Message-ID: <fc.005b8ffc02d7cbcf3b9aca00a2e56eb2.2d7cbd0@mcgregor.edu>

We have closed the office for the long weekend holiday.  I will not be
responding to my e-mail until my return on Tuesday, September 4.  I hope
you also have a great holiday weekend.

From amaruyama at antioch-college.edu  Sat Sep  1 15:39:13 2007
From: amaruyama at antioch-college.edu (Aimee Maruyama)
Date: Sat Sep  1 15:53:54 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 1
Message-ID: <fc.005b8ffc02d7cbd43b9aca00a2e56eb2.2d7cbd5@mcgregor.edu>

We have closed the office for the long weekend holiday.  I will not be
responding to my e-mail until my return on Tuesday, September 4.  I hope
you also have a great holiday weekend.

From rgrimes at antioch-college.edu  Sat Sep  1 15:39:18 2007
From: rgrimes at antioch-college.edu (Risa Grimes)
Date: Sat Sep  1 15:53:58 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 1
Message-ID: <fc.005b8ffc02d7cbf43b9aca00a2e56eb2.2d7cbf5@mcgregor.edu>

We have closed the office for the long weekend holiday.  I will not be
responding to my e-mail until my return on Tuesday, September 4.  I hope
you also have a great holiday weekend.

From theodora at imbris.com  Sat Sep  1 16:55:44 2007
From: theodora at imbris.com (Pam Olsen)
Date: Sat Sep  1 16:53:29 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <20070901195346.8774761627B0@w3.antioch.edu>
Message-ID: <C2FF1FDD.3121%theodora@imbris.com>




> 
> You're wrong. But don't worry in a few short months, you'll have Hillarycare
> and we can all relax and enjoy the benefits of that. Between now and then
> you're welcome to use Canada's socialized healthcare system since it's so
> muich better than ours. I feel sorry for the thousands of Canadians who are
> "simply uninformed" and come to the United States for "the worst health care
> in the world." Gosh, maybe their Surgeon General needs to put up a sign at
> the border: 


David,  As for HIllary care,  of course, we don't know what would have been
if she had been able to do what she wanted to do, instead of finally caving
in to insurance companies and creating "managed care".

As for Canadians coming to this country, I have dear friends who live in
Quebec, who came to help me work on my house in February.  I asked them
about their healthcare.  They said it is excellent.  The only surgery they
have to wait for is elective surgery.   I live only 100 miles from the
Canadian border.  I have friends at church who drive up there every six
months to get her Tamoxifin.  Here, it would be $100 a month.  THere, it is
$24 for six months!  It is worth the trip!

i lived in Switzerland as an exchange student in high school.  I was from
what might be called a lower middle class family.  I'd not have been able to
go without my grandmother paying the $600 for the year--upfront (same for
Antioch).  My Swiss family was very poor, even by Swiss standards.  All four
of the children became professionals:  two engineers, one physician and one
architect.  They all now have beautiful homes, take long vacations every
year, have travelled the world, have excellent health care, are in good
health in their 50s and 60s (except for some sports accidents--they're all
avid sportspeople), and look forward to secure retirements.   They don't
have to worry about losing everything they have to a medical crisis, unlike
this uninsured cancer survivor.  I've been cancer free for 7.5 years.  I
still can't get insurance without it costing me a fortune, and thanks to
Managed Care, I can't afford it.  So I just do my best to stay healthy.

Surgery is not the only health care issue.   And, of course, even
life-saving surgeries are denied if people can't pay for them.  It blows my
mind that people will get on TV and try and raise money for life-saving
treatments because they don't have insurance or insurance won't cover a new
"unproven" treatment.  We just let them die.

Are you aware that the most recent dietary quidelines put out by the FDA
were essentially dictated by the sugar and meat industries, rather than by
nutritional research?  Read The China Study, esp. the appendices.

Face it, David, your philosophy is a theory.  I have been billing insurance
companies for 24 years.  I live with the results of such a theory every day
of my life.  I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that our health care system
is not there to serve the people.  Patients are not getting good care,
providers who try and be available to everyone, not only the rich, are not
getting fair payment.  While the CEOs and employees of the insurance
companies are making it big, and bigger all the time.   Health care for
profit was a dumb idea.

We all know what Big Business has done for the environment.  And look at
what it's doing to our democracy.

It has been in the news a lot lately that the rich in our country are
getting much, much richer, while the middle class is getting smaller.  This
is not the case in European countries, where the middle class is increasing
in size.  

In my opinion, the data is in.  Your theory hasn't worked, except to make a
small percentage of the population a whole lot richer.

Pam 

    

From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sat Sep  1 18:45:49 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (john_hevelin (bwotte@rexx.com))
Date: Sat Sep  1 18:46:31 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
In-Reply-To: <afa70f6b17151e2709d90c2066cd5646@antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <a2803d12859f857317844250d261de46@www.antiochians.org>


>I'm up for allowing everyone on the forum. I'm also liking the fact that the two forums are bridged, though it can sometimes be a pain in the ass.
>
>Jane Slater
>Mean Troll
>Class of '80
I agree.

There are folks whose postings I no longer read because they are devoid of meaningful content.  There are other folks with whom I violently disagree but who I read because they raise issues (real or imagined) that need to be confronted.  By their fruits shall ye know them (Matthew 7:20).

We're in a battle to win hearts and minds, to raise consciousness.  Gotta have dialogue to do that.  Don't feed the trolls, but don't stomp the sightseers, either.  Rome wasn't burned in a day, consciousness wasn't raised in a single post.  The evolutionary road is long and hard.

John Hevelin '68


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sat Sep  1 19:28:34 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (hopeless (debra_good@yahoo.com))
Date: Sat Sep  1 19:29:14 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
In-Reply-To: <a2803d12859f857317844250d261de46@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <407777d40eebc66c621cb153eb5e3486@www.antiochians.org>

John:

I agree with you even without the biblical reference!

Deb '83

>There are folks whose postings I no longer read because they are devoid of meaningful content.  There are other folks with whom I violently disagree but who I read because they raise issues (real or imagined) that need to be confronted.  By their fruits shall ye know them (Matthew 7:20).
>
>We're in a battle to win hearts and minds, to raise consciousness.  Gotta have dialogue to do that.  Don't feed the trolls, but don't stomp the sightseers, either.  Rome wasn't burned in a day, consciousness wasn't raised in a single post.  The evolutionary road is long and hard.
>
>John Hevelin '68


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sat Sep  1 19:33:10 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (mackenzie (mackenzie.bristow@gmail.com))
Date: Sat Sep  1 19:33:53 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Students From Japan
Message-ID: <b6aaf8dc0e9288fe71173c4217601d04@antiochians.org>

I am living in South Korea and have some extra time.  I am sure that no one has contacted all the exchange students from Kyoto that used to come to Antioch.  Many of them really loved the school. If any one has an idea how I can contact them please let me know.

Thanks!
Mackenzie


From Sistersara at aol.com  Sat Sep  1 20:56:56 2007
From: Sistersara at aol.com (Sistersara@aol.com)
Date: Sat Sep  1 20:57:47 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 1
Message-ID: <d4b.101235d2.340b6458@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/1/2007 3:52:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
theodora@imbris.com writes:

David,  As for HIllary care,  of course, we don't know what  would have been
if she had been able to do what she wanted to do, instead  of finally caving
in to insurance companies and creating "managed  care".




Hillary made two huge mistakes in 1993-94 had she wanted to actually move  
the mountain down the road a bit on Health care -- both are political  mistakes. 
 
 
The first was her commission structure.  She had virtually no elected  
officials on it, she totally ignored congress, and what she attempted was the  
compromises that usually fall to Legislators in the process of actually drafting  a 
bill.  She had every lobby and interest group she could think of  involved, 
except the ones that actually count -- Politicians.  Why she did  it this way, 
I don't know.  Was it because she wanted to be in charge of  what generally 
goes on in Mark-Up? (where Power counts), I don't know.  But  this pretty much 
guaranteed failure.  
 
Second problem.  Her dealings with Senators and Representatives were  total 
flops.  Hillary was new to Health Care -- virtually all Senators and  
Representatives have both case managers who deal with individual problems, and  if they 
are on the right committees -- staff experts who have been at this for  
decades.  When she went around to visit the members, they would bring in  their 
staffers, and they ran circles around her.  
 
Over the years I had some very interesting discussions with Paul Wellstone  
about how the debate went in those years, and subsequently how his view of how  
to go about successfully building a National Health System should actually  
proceed.  Just for the hell of it, I will lay out her the evolution as I  
understand it of one Progressive Senator's thinking.  
 
Paul was elected on the generic Single Payer -- something like the Canadian  
Model platform.  It was a centerpiece of his position in 1990, and he kept  at 
it till he died.  But his view of how it should be organized did  change.  
 
Paul came to believe that the role of the Federal Government should be  
somewhat limited.  It should, collect the tax to support much of the  program.  It 
should lay out the menu of covered services every citizen  would be able to 
access.  It should fund and oversee most medical research  using the National 
Institutes of Health, the National Academy of Medicine and  the CDC.  (Paul 
favored eliminating the Surgeon General, and combining the  Public Health Service 
with CDC, vastly expanding its role.)  Paul also  believed the grand 
compromise (or at least one of them) would involve the Feds  paying for all medical 
education plus living stipends for student Doctors,  Nurses, and most medical 
technology fields.  Because any real reform will  be about eliminating fee for 
service, and going to a salary/appointment to a job  structure, taking over the 
full cost of education and in-service education would  have to be a Federal 
Expense, and would be part of the grand compromise with the  professions.  He 
also believed we had to expand medical ed -- currently we  depend on third world 
countries to send us perhaps 20% of our young medical  personnel for 
"training" and then if they are any good, we recruit them for  jobs.  Paul thought we 
should home grow what we require, and the Federal  Government would need to 
work with national and state Medical and Nursing  associations to expand 
schools.  
 
But where he evolved was with regard to design of service delivery.   He 
thought each state should be required to design a quality, but economical  d
elivery system that fit its needs and circumstances.  He thought something  like a 
Board of Regents, appointed by the Governor and Legislator of each state  -- 
one point of distance between actual elected officials, and appointments to  
fairly long term Regents boards would provide the right degree of political  
sensitivity to consumer needs -- but would also allow Professionals to  
participate in management of the delivery system.  He would have required  that over a 
period of years, all health facilities would be held in trust by the  states, 
and these boards of regents would have planning staff, and be able to  design 
the most economical yet highest quality means of delivering services  specific 
to the conditions of each state.  In political terms, Paul thought  that many 
states would define areas of service so that small group practices  would bid 
on them -- or existing managed care or Insurance groups could reform  their 
business model, and see a way to contract to participate.  But the  whole thing 
would be organized at the state level, .allowing states to design  ways to 
meet the Federal Menu in different ways reflecting their own  circumstances.  
Paul believed, for instance, that using MA Nurse  Practioners in low population 
rural areas tied directly to 24/7 speciality  clinics via telecommunications 
nets, and also backed up by air ambulance  services -- would be economical in 
"Greater Minnesota"  ... but in Suburban  and Urban areas different 
distributions of skill sets would be  appropriate.  States would be better able to 
organize such service  distribution systems -- and making the state legislature 
politically sensitive  made more sense than making service delivery a federal 
matter.  
 
Finance -- Paul would have devised something like a value added tax for  both 
production and services to support the whole system.  He would have  also 
taxed imports of goods and services on the same rational, believing this  might 
make it just as economical to keep jobs on-shore rather than off-shoring  to 
low wage, low service sites.  The Federal Government would divide up  this 
revenue on a per-capita basis and block grant it to meet the Federal menu  to the 
states.  States would bear the cost of bricks and mortar -- building  new 
hospitals, clinics, renovating old ones.  Much of that funding would  probably come 
from state level taxes, or bonding decided on in the normal  appropriations 
process by the state legislature.  Paul would have also  added a progressive 
surcharge to ordinary income tax at the Federal Level.   But he would also have 
eliminated all "Health Insurance" as it now stands.   He would have gradually 
integrated medicare/medicade, Tribal Health Care under  treaties, the VA 
medical system and all other special entitlements.   Everyone would be treated 
equally within the system, but obviously a state with  many Vets would have to 
consider the needs to provide specialized services as  authorized under the menu 
-- and vet benefits would be on the menu.  A  state would have to decide 
whether it wanted to offer a speciality clinic for  face lifts.  As to drugs and 
other out-patient prescriptions, these would  be purchased by state regent 
boards, and distributed through private pharmacies  at cost plus service fees.  
 
I contributed two narratives to Paul's thinking.  The first was a  story 
about putting a member of an Elderhostel group I led in Denmark into the  hospital 
because of a heart condition.  As the group leader I had the  insurance 
packet that had to be filled out in order for the coverage Elderhostel  carried on 
international programs to pay out.  I have never had such a  laugh on 
something serious.  I had to collect the names of all the  medications that were part 
of the treatment, and get the cost -- essentially per  pill or injection.  
Well Denmark purchases all of its medications  nationally on a bid system, and no 
one knows what they cost per pill.  They  just figure out on a national basis 
what they will need, they factor in a little  inflation in need, and then 
they put out a bid, and negotiate down.  They  have a central distribution center 
that stocks all hospitals, clinics and  pharmacies.  Even in the 1980's it 
was all electronic.  But no one  knew what it cost.  I had the absolute joy of 
introducing a Danish Doctor  to the Joys of Fee for Service Medicine, (and 
thank you AEA,) I did it all in  Danish.  
 
The second thing I passed on to Paul was my translation of a debate in the  
Danish Folketing about increasing the budget for the national school lunch  
program.  The fact that bad nutrition in youth had been determined to be a  
contributing factor to heart disease perhaps 40 years later had been pretty well  
proven up caused the Folketing (the national Legislature) to debate the cost of 
 replacing all the bad stuff with good stuff in the 7-16 year old school 
lunch  programs.  The issue at question was how much money would be saved perhaps  
40 or 50 years down the pike by vastly improving the nutritional standard of  
school lunches.  Fewer expensive heart attacks was actually a legislative  
priority -- not now, 50 years in the future.  Obviously having a national  
health system with long term budget impacts is a pre-condition to having such a  
debate, and our Senate has never really had such.  They get distracted with  
debates about corporate coke machines in school lunch rooms.  Paul got it  
written up, put it in the congressional record, and circulated it to members of  
Health, Education and Labor Committee on which he served.  Of course if you  
reduce the number of persons with heart disease, you also provide a good to your  
citizens other than just being responsible with the budget.  He told me  
afterwards that committee members could not imagine a debate about policy that  
looked that far out, both Republicans and Democrats.  We don't even have  our 
Heart Societies collaborating with out school lunch program advocates.   But the 
Danes took the research, ran the numbers for 40-50 years out, and had a  
debate about it, and changed the nutrition guidelines for that program in  
concordance with the known data.  
 
Anyhow this is where he was when the plane crashed, and we got a total  
neo-con occupying that seat.  We have to change the terms of the debate,  and 
unless we do that we will get nowhere.    
 
 



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sat Sep  1 22:11:06 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (hopeless (debra_good@yahoo.com))
Date: Sat Sep  1 22:11:47 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
Message-ID: <e32d90daf93936783e59900fa8566fc0@www.antiochians.org>

With the news of Steve Lawry stepping down, we must all be wondering what's going on.  I know I am.  

There are a number of possibilities.  Here are a few of them (in no particular order):

1.  Steve was fired by the BoT and/or the Chancellor.
2.  Perhaps the BoT and/or the Chancellor recognizes there may be some hope with regard to reviving the College and want Steve to focus on helping the AB formulate their business plan and raise funds.  
3.  Something happened that made Steve want to leave immediately.

The list could go on and on.  At this point we don't really know what happened.  

WARNING: The rest of this post will be filled with my ideas and opinions and I'm mentioning this right now to avoid any further threats of litigation, etc.

Steve Lawry has brought a well-defined clarity to the mission of saving the College.  It seems to me that the AB proposal to the BoT last weekend was well in agreement with some of the issues Steve has been addressing and speaking to and about since his arrival at Antioch.  Steve is an effective public speaker, a gentleman and a scholar.  He has a special gift in being able to assess the health and sources of dysfunction of an institution in very little time.  Upon his arrival, he wasn't given a warm welcome by many at the College.  Despite the hostility he encountered and the continual attacks on his leadership, Steve rose above it and has maintained a respectful attitude toward the people and issues at Antioch.  

Though Steve could have taken a back seat since the announcement of his resignation, which was to be effective December 31, 2007, he continued to be an active participant in efforts to save the college and disseminate information to various parties by appearing at chapter meetings in other locales and, from what I understand, making himself available on campus.   I don't know of many people in his position who would do so.  I think it speaks very well of him and his commitment to Antioch.

For a host of reasons, Antioch College has been suffering for many years.  The College is constantly in a worrisome financial state and the academic programs have suffered because of it.  Antioch has also been having trouble attracting and retaining students for a very long time no matter what anybody says.  All of these things are connected.

The BoT scheduled a web seminar (webinar) to communicate to all interested parties financial information in support of their decision to declare financial exigency.  This information was essential to our understanding of the situation and would have allowed us to make more intelligent decisions on how to proceed.  Unfortunately, the faculty prematurely filed a lawsuit against the Trustees effectively aborting that webinar.  The BoT were roundly criticized for waiting until the last minute to cancel the webinar.  I would like to remind everyone that in order for them to make that decision, they would have had to gather enough people to discuss the issue and consult with their lawyers.  They had less then two days to decide.  That being said, I don't like the way the initial decision to "suspend operations" was made or passed down.  One would have hoped the BoT would have at least consulted with some of the stakeholders before making that fateful decision.  

Last week, the BoT held an open meeting in which interested parties and stakeholders were invited to give input.  There was a great showing of support for Antioch College as measured by input from students, faculty, staff, alumni and former trustees.  I don't know whether the BoT was sincerely interested in hearing our input or if their lawyers or public relations consultants suggested it would be a good move but maybe it doesn't really matter.  They came and they heard.  Whether this will change anything remains to be seen.

I listened to hours of podcasts of the BoT meetings in their entirety (with the exception of the latter part of the open forum held on Saturday morning which I am still in the process of finishing).  I found it interesting but also disappointing.  Much of the support is in the form of emotion and that's fine but, truthfully, I don't think the presentation of the AB proposal to the BoT was as powerful as it should have been.  When a Trustee asked the AB Treasurer exactly how much cash we had raised to date (as opposed to pledged donations), our Treasurer was unable to give a dollar figure.  He mentioned he knew what the number was as of "last week" ($250,000) but he still had a lot of checks in his briefcase and would be meeting with a representative of the bank on the following day.  That looked very bad strategically in that the AB doesn't appear organized or super-competent.  I'm not mentioning this to be needlessly critical. I understand the entire AB is working very hard on
volunteer time and I think that's wonderful but I do think we need to appear and be more organized and professional.  Furthermore, I wish the AB would act a bit more like a representative body.  By this, I don't mean they should prepare a business plan online with us, but communications from them are sorely lacking and I cannot understand why they don't solicit ideas for visioning and the like from the vast number of brilliant and competent alumni who are not even participating on this chat, for good reason.

I haven't been living in Yellow Springs since I graduated in 1983 although I have visited numerous times.  I know the College wasn't in good shape when I attended and in my view, it hasn't really improved much since then.  On each of my visits to Antioch, I have made a point of trying to engage and reach out to faculty and staff members as well as students.  I've been donating money to the College, either through contributions to the annual fund, the library or the The Antioch Review for a few years after it lost its funding from the College.  I've encouraged many friends to do the same over the years.  I believe in what Antioch used to stand for.

After participating on these chats, I don't know what Antioch currently stands for but if the chats are any indication, I don't like it.  Antioch College in its current morph seems more like an ongoing dress rehearsal for Lord of the Flies than a liberal arts college.  The culture seems stifling and I know this because when I post messages on the chat, I get private e-mails from people who say they agree with me but don't feel comfortable posting on the chats either because they work at the College or they don't want to be attacked as they think I have been for speaking out.  They are simply afraid.

Don't get me wrong.  I am not blaming the students.  I don't even have much contact with current students but the students from the past 10 or 20 years who are most vocal on the chats appear, with a few exceptions, politically naive, poorly educated with inadequate analytical and writing skills (which may be a function of the technology) and lack an understanding of both the business and academic worlds.  I am very bothered by the fact that they do not appear to be independent thinkers and seem to be easily led due to their susceptibility to politically leftist rhetoric.

If, in answer to my prayers to the God I do not believe in, Steve Lawry does stick around to help the AB with the formation of an independent Antioch College Board and participate in fundraising and visioning with them, I'll pledge with my heart, soul and wallet and encourage everyone I know to the do the same.

If not, I'll fade away from this exercise in futility and remember what Piggy said in Lord of the Flies, "How can you expect to be rescued if you don't put first things first and act proper."

To quote William Golding, "What was the sensible thing to do? There was no Piggy to talk sense. There was no solemn assembly for debate nor dignity of the conch."

Sadly,
Deb Goodman, class of 1983


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sat Sep  1 22:11:44 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (ccary60 (ccary60@gmail.com))
Date: Sat Sep  1 22:12:25 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Toni Murdock must go.
In-Reply-To: <f774c1bce4793cefeca5e14113502424@antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <39c9b1ecafd8a03c885a6f4fcb14f78b@www.antiochians.org>

As someone who worked with this so-called trio of leadership -- Thompson, Bloch and Sirk-- I agree.   This feels like a take-over and sabotage of resources. Steve is not talking although I understand he is on administrative leave for 4 months. Something happended that led the Chancellor to believe he crossed the line.  Locks don't get changed to the core of alumni data if contol is not the issue.  Toni Murdock has taken a bold step and I wonder who among the BoT is aware of this.  They should be informed.  This is a serious breach of agreement.
Callie

>If Steven Lawry was terminated, the locks were changed at the development office and Lynda Sirk was made the sole conduit for information promised to the Alumni Board by Antioch University Board of Trustees, then I believe that the chancellor is violating the spirit, if not the letter, of last weekend's agreement.
>
>She is an employee serving at the pleasure of the members of the Board of Trustees. If she is acting counter to the Board's wishes, she must be removed from office.
>
>Alan Benard, '92


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sat Sep  1 22:36:04 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (alanbenard (alanbenard@pobox.com))
Date: Sat Sep  1 22:36:46 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
In-Reply-To: <e32d90daf93936783e59900fa8566fc0@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <325f7b1d9931e3f1e523032fa7a0540e@antiochians.org>

tldr


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 00:19:45 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (bdevine (bdevine@antioch-college.edu))
Date: Sun Sep  2 00:20:26 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
In-Reply-To: <e32d90daf93936783e59900fa8566fc0@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <508df00c8d1239543f5d531829282411@www.antiochians.org>


>Don't get me wrong.  I am not blaming the students.  I don't even have much contact with current students but the students from the past 10 or 20 years who are most vocal on the chats appear, with a few exceptions, politically naive, poorly educated with inadequate analytical and writing skills (which may be a function of the technology) and lack an understanding of both the business and academic worlds.  I am very bothered by the fact that they do not appear to be independent thinkers and seem to be easily led due to their susceptibility to politically leftist rhetoric.
Deb,

Really?  Who or what posts specifically demonstrate the pattern you describe of being "politically naive, poorly educated, with inadequate and writing skills...and a lack of understanding of both the business and academic worlds?"  Are there examples you can cite?  Do you mean "In my opinion", is there a deeper analysis, or are there perhaps measures of these criteria?    

If anyone is interested, I have a half dozen first-year papers from this past spring that I can send you electronically.  They are among the most sophisticated I've seen, and they'll knock the socks off any stereotypes about "the students of today".  

Bob


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 00:21:34 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (hopeless (debra_good@yahoo.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 00:22:15 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
In-Reply-To: <BAY122-F315A6C92564338D621B49EDCCE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <83a609fd787b45bc3099b1966bdbd432@antiochians.org>

Jonah:

This is very interesting information.  I think if anybody wants to cut off the antioch alumni chat, they should go ahead and do it and the dozen of them can have a very nice discussion and support each other in a very warm and fuzzy way!

It's also possible, that if the people who label us "defeatiochs" stay away, other people may feel more free to add to the conversation, although I'm not in favor of silencing (or banning) anyone who's willing to identify his or herself by more than a handle.

Best,
Deb '83

>no jonah.  we are unbridging it so we can ban them.
>
>
>"We are going to inherit the earth . There is not the slightest doubt about
>that. The bourgeoisie may blast and burn its own world before it leaves the
>stage of history but we are not afraid of ruins. We who ploughed the
>prairies and built the cities can build again, only better next time. We
>carry a new world, here in our hearts. That world is growing this minute."
>----Durruti
>
>>From: "jal2121 (jah@hotmail.com)" <alumni-chat_forum@antiochians.org>
>>Reply-To: Alumni Chat List <alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu>
>>To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
>>Subject: Re: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
>>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:39:48 -0500
>>
>>The so-called "defeatioch" alumni can post anywhere they want on
>>antiochians.org, so un-bridging alumni-chat won't solve your gripes.
>>
>>In addition, if you look at the screen that shows "views" on
>>antiochians.org, you'll find that posts by "defeatiochs" receive the most
>>views and hits.  Obviously, I haven't done a particularly rigorous
>>analysis, but I would suggest that the popularity of these threads is a
>>sure sign that they should be kept.
>>
>>Furthermore, while there are clearly annoying back and forths on these
>>threads, there is also incredibly interesting and useful knowledge
>>generated.  As an example, and again this is only a guess, I bet you'd find
>>most of Bob Devine's highly informative posts about all things Antioch and
>>sistersara encyclopedic knowledge of Antioch's history all within the
>>so-called "defeatioch" threads.
>>
>>I don't think un-bridging will solve the problem, but I do think continued
>>engagement in the issues raised might.  In fact, I think trying to silence
>>or otherwise remove the "defeatiochs" is good way to reproduce and
>>reinforce the toxic culture label.
>>
>>Jonah Liebert


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 00:22:51 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (hopeless (debra_good@yahoo.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 00:23:33 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
In-Reply-To: <508df00c8d1239543f5d531829282411@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <b14e183e8d5055328fd86ce91d886497@antiochians.org>

Bob:

I've been advised not to reply to you.

Deb

>>Don't get me wrong.  I am not blaming the students.  I don't even have much contact with current students but the students from the past 10 or 20 years who are most vocal on the chats appear, with a few exceptions, politically naive, poorly educated with inadequate analytical and writing skills (which may be a function of the technology) and lack an understanding of both the business and academic worlds.  I am very bothered by the fact that they do not appear to be independent thinkers and seem to be easily led due to their susceptibility to politically leftist rhetoric.
>Deb,
>
>Really?  Who or what posts specifically demonstrate the pattern you describe of being "politically naive, poorly educated, with inadequate and writing skills...and a lack of understanding of both the business and academic worlds?"  Are there examples you can cite?  Do you mean "In my opinion", is there a deeper analysis, or are there perhaps measures of these criteria?
>
>If anyone is interested, I have a half dozen first-year papers from this past spring that I can send you electronically.  They are among the most sophisticated I've seen, and they'll knock the socks off any stereotypes about "the students of today".
>
>Bob


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 00:53:59 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (sgahealth (sgahealth@aol.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 00:54:40 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
In-Reply-To: <b14e183e8d5055328fd86ce91d886497@antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <758d419bf52ee8939e41884d4db09f2c@www.antiochians.org>

Don't get me wrong.  I am not blaming the students.  I don't even have much contact with current students.... 


Deb,

I was on campus last weekend and drove some first year students to Cincinnati....and I've been working with recent grads through the Chg Alumni Chapter.  I've been very impressed.   I encourage you to get to know some recent students.  You might be surprised.      Susan '77


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 02:07:22 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (megan (grinrose@aol.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 02:07:34 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
In-Reply-To: <758d419bf52ee8939e41884d4db09f2c@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <7402131bfdf7d8b336bcd8a389ddd8d6@www.antiochians.org>

Dear Susan,
It has been a pleasure getting to know and work with you.  I too have been impressed with all of the alumni over such a huge span of class years... It has been great meeting so many wonderful people, working and learning together!
Thank you,
megan
>Deb,
>
>I was on campus last weekend and drove some first year students to Cincinnati....and I've been working with recent grads through the Chg Alumni Chapter.  I've been very impressed.   I encourage you to get to know some recent students.  You might be surprised.      Susan '77


From marklp2 at comcast.net  Sun Sep  2 02:49:35 2007
From: marklp2 at comcast.net (Mark Pomerantz)
Date: Sun Sep  2 02:49:53 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] inclusion
In-Reply-To: <022501c7ecbd$7bb37100$731a5300$@net>
References: <20070831232641.B7E41615E6B7@w3.antioch.edu><C2FE1A57.310E%theodora@imbris.com>
	<022501c7ecbd$7bb37100$731a5300$@net>
Message-ID: <00ca01c7ed2d$6cf204e0$0201a8c0@home84c77b9b4f>

Dear David,

Please enjoy your constitutional rights given us by the liberal founding
fathers of our country to believe and espouse anything you want.

If you think "small government" is good and government that tries to make up
for the deficits of the market in helping Americans live a decent healthy
life is bad go right ahead and believe that. I happen to believe that a
government bureaucracy free from corporate controlled campaign finance and
staffed by professional well trained civil service protected managers with
reasonable policies and work rules can actually make our lives better. That
doesn't mean that government can't be entrepreneurial and cultivate
public-private partnerships when that seems reasonable and effective too.

Mark P. '71

-----Original Message-----
From: alumni-chat-bounces@w3.antioch.edu
[mailto:alumni-chat-bounces@w3.antioch.edu] On Behalf Of J. David Coldren
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:28 AM
To: 'Alumni Chat List'
Subject: RE: [Alumni-chat] inclusion

Pam,

Thanks for your message which -- after telling me that I was "simply
unformed" -- can be fairly summed up in: "We have the worst health care in
the world amongst industrialized nations, and the most expensive."

You're wrong. But don't worry in a few short months, you'll have Hillarycare
and we can all relax and enjoy the benefits of that. Between now and then
you're welcome to use Canada's socialized healthcare system since it's so
muich better than ours. I feel sorry for the thousands of Canadians who are
"simply uninformed" and come to the United States for "the worst health care
in the world." Gosh, maybe their Surgeon General needs to put up a sign at
the border: "WARNING: You are about to enter the United States, which has
the worst health care in the world. The studies by our government and by the
United Nations that show that access to surgeries and other life-saving
treatments is far worse than in the United States? You may just ignore them.
Right-wing propaganda."

In solidarity,


J. David Coldren '65




-----Original Message-----
From: alumni-chat-bounces@w3.antioch.edu
[mailto:alumni-chat-bounces@w3.antioch.edu] On Behalf Of Pam Olsen
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:20 PM
To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
Subject: [Alumni-chat] inclusion



> From: alumni-chat-request@w3.antioch.edu
> Reply-To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:26:41 -0400 (EDT)
> To: alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
> Subject: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 6, Issue 92
> 
> While the liberals' first recourse seems to be to seize the
> awesome power of the State to pass a law reigning in personal behavior or
> confiscating a portion of a person's income in order to redistribute it to
> likely voters, conservatives prefer to remove government red tape and
> regulations from the backs of individual entrepreneurs and to allow the
> central government primacy only in certain areas like national defense, a
> federal justice system, and other powers actually enumerated in the
> Constitution. 


Ok, David, you've roused my ire now!  I'm going to assume that in some
areas, you are simply uninformed, since i respect your knowledge and brains
overall, even if you are that nasty word--conservative.

I recently wrote my soon to be retired senator Larry Craig because I was
furious when I learned that a medication that would cost me $350 a month if
I bought it at the local pharmacy would only cost me $46 from a so-called
Canadian pharmacy.  why?  Because "A generic has been available
internationally for several years," said the company I ordered from.

So I asked dear Mr. Craig how it can be that generics that are available
worldwide aren't available here?  This was about the time that I found a bat
on my front porch that my cat had killed and I was waiting to find out if it
was rabid.  If so, I was facing paying $1000 for a series of vaccinations.
I could not believe that we live in a country that would not provide rabies
vaccinations as a public health service!  How much would that cost the
government, about $20,000 a year?  THere is a sad story on the internet
about a four year old girl who died because her parents, who found a bat in
her room,  didn't see any evidence of a bite (which you can't see because
their teeth are so small, they don't make visible wounds).   What do you
want to bet they didn't want to spend $1000.

Anyway, to continue:  I received a letter back with, as usual, the party
line (they don't listen anymore, they lecture), they need all that money for
research, and besides, we have to support a free market.  We can't set
limits on what drug companies can charge.

So I wrote him back (haven't sent it, and now it's moot), "So, if you won't
limit what drug companies can charge, how do you justify limiting what
health care providers can charge?"

Do you realize that Medicaid pays less than half the "usual and customary"
fee that providers charge?  Medicare, I understand, pays even less.  I
haven't bothered filling out their 18 page application to find out for sure.
These entitities don't "negotiate" these fees, they simply set them. Plus
they require rediculous levels of documentation.

And Managed Care?  They suck us into their networks with various
manipulations:  if we're not in it, we can't bill them electronically, thus,
we wait much longer to get paid.  Or they send the check (if they pay
anything at all) to the patient (who typically forgets to forward it).  And
of course if we're in it, then they control what we are paid.  United Health
Care started us at our usual and customary in 95. The next year, they
lowered it $10.  The next year, another $10.  That was 9 years ago.  We
haven't had a raise since.  My office expenses have tripled in that time.
In a big city where people have money and are sophisticated about mental
health, this probably doesn't make a huge difference.  In rural areas where
people do not have money and depend upon Medicaid or insurnace to pay, it's
a very big deal.  If I want to serve them, I have to be in those networks.

I have a small practice.  But even I have over 50 companies in my computer.
And new ones come down the pike every month.  And I get to fill out all the
same paperwork to be "credentialed" by every single one of them, every two
years.  Nevermind that I am trained and licensed, that's not enough.

I could go on and on.  The rediculous amount of time we spend on the phone
getting preauthorization (which has NEVER in 10 years, been refused--it is a
bunch of silly busy work!).  Or trying to get the right menu to get the
right human to ask a simple question.  I spent 30 minutes on the phone just
the other day just to find the right human to point out to them that they
had preauthorized several sessions before sending me a letter telling me
that they had preauthozied only one, and I'd have to apply two weeks ahead
of time to get a second onw!.

It is a rediculously inefficient system that costs the consumer (in addition
to the providers) billions and billions every year, all in the name of a
free market.  A free market for everyone except providers.  Like we're the
ones ripping people off.

We're not the one ripping people off.  The drug companies are ripping people
off.  The insurance companies are ripping people off.

Providers are just trying to make a living and help people at the same time.

You might think Kucinich is way left of left, but he is the only candidate
who gets it when it comes to health care.  Conservatives can't buffalo the
country anymore with this nonsense that we have the best health care in the
world.  We have the worst health care in the world amongst industrialized
nations, and the most expensive.


I become increasingly convinced that Big Business will never do what is in
the best interest of the people.  Big Business will only do what helps their
bottom line, screw the people.

The interesting thing is, the social changes that Progressives want all
eventually happen because THEY'RE THE RIGHT THING TO DO!   But in this
country, only after Big Business have made their billions, and are forced to
do them (like health care for all, alternative energy, more fuel efficient
cars, less air pollution, etc.)

Rain storm coming in, got to unplug!

Pam





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Alumni-chat mailing list
Alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
http://w3.antioch.edu/mailman/listinfo/alumni-chat
Visit http://www.Antioch-College.edu today!

_______________________________________________
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Alumni-chat@w3.antioch.edu
http://w3.antioch.edu/mailman/listinfo/alumni-chat
Visit http://www.Antioch-College.edu today!

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From amaruyama at antioch-college.edu  Sun Sep  2 02:35:45 2007
From: amaruyama at antioch-college.edu (Aimee Maruyama)
Date: Sun Sep  2 02:50:04 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 2
Message-ID: <fc.005b8ffc02d801ee3b9aca00cf267322.2d801ef@mcgregor.edu>

We have closed the office for the long weekend holiday.  I will not be
responding to my e-mail until my return on Tuesday, September 4.  I hope
you also have a great holiday weekend.

From fkraus at antioch-college.edu  Sun Sep  2 02:35:45 2007
From: fkraus at antioch-college.edu (Fred Kraus)
Date: Sun Sep  2 02:50:06 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 2
Message-ID: <fc.005b8ffc02d801f13b9aca00cf267322.2d801f2@mcgregor.edu>

We have closed the office for the long weekend holiday.  I will not be
responding to my e-mail until my return on Tuesday, September 4.  I hope
you also have a great holiday weekend.

From rgrimes at antioch-college.edu  Sun Sep  2 02:35:48 2007
From: rgrimes at antioch-college.edu (Risa Grimes)
Date: Sun Sep  2 02:50:09 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 2
Message-ID: <fc.005b8ffc02d802063b9aca00cf267322.2d80207@mcgregor.edu>

We have closed the office for the long weekend holiday.  I will not be
responding to my e-mail until my return on Tuesday, September 4.  I hope
you also have a great holiday weekend.

From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 05:03:28 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (john_hevelin (bwotte@rexx.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 05:03:51 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] What will the BOT do?
In-Reply-To: <9259c111698ae5b6aca871b69fd86176@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <eff7a8b99c7490981609b61cc4cb5f51@www.antiochians.org>

Hi, Liza,

>When I was there, we had a 4-quarter system, which worked like this:
>
>First-year (for A Div):
>Fall: Class
>Winter: Co-op
>Spring: Class
>Summer: Class
>
>Second-year:
>Fall: Co-op
>Winter: Class
>Spring: Co-op
>Summer: Co-op
>
>and so on, with B Div having a schedule that was exactly flipped (they started in the Summer with a study term, and went on co-op their first Fall quarter).
I was B Div, started in the Summer 1964 quarter.  I didn't feel that missing a summer "vacation" was a great sacrifice, but I was eager to leave home and start school.

>As I see it, one of the drawbacks of the system in place when I was there was that it was supposed to be a 5 year program, which I think is a real disadvantage in attracting high-school students.
The 5-year program was not a disincentive to me, but I can imagine that today (especially with the current tuition) it might be problematical.  I believe that money earned during co-op periods theoretically offset the additional year of tuition, but I have no figures to demonstrate whether that was true or not.

>It wasn't that hard to complete in 4 years (with 6 co-ops), though, if you were motivated. Another was that it was very socially disruptive.
Well, you must have been a better student that I was, and I worked hard.  I didn't have enough money for five years, and pretty much had to finish in four, which was a stretch.  I would have enjoyed staying for a fifth year, might have explored AEA (which I didn't feel confident enough  or financially secure enough to tackle while younger) or some other enrichment projects that I had to skip.  I didn't find finishing in four years to be "socially disruptive" -- in fact, because of the way quarters were staggered, I got to meet the "other div", which was fun.

>I do think that there are some advantages to having multiple out-in-the-non-Antioch-world experiences, although I would be interested to hear about the co-op communities. One of the thoughts I had was that one might be able to better integrate the classroom/co-op experience, decrease the social disruption factor, build community, and help address some of campus renovation issues if 2 of the co-ops were based in Yellow Springs.
The co-op quarters I spent in New York City (six in all) and Washington, D.C. (one) were the most valuable part of my Antioch experience, and that is not to denigrate the academic curriculum, which was firstrate.  But the opportunity to try different jobs, and to experience the real world outside of Antioch, was invaluable to me, and enabled me to grow in ways that would have been impossible at a more traditional school.  And twelve weeks (with the possibility of twenty-four weeks, with the staggered schedule) was just the right amount of time to either study or work -- just as you were becoming tired of one or the other, poof!  The quarter changed, and you were somewhere else.  I found it refreshing, never felt that lack of a vacation.

>Curious to know what other people think about the relative advantages and disadvantages of quarter-based vs. trimester-based classroom/co-op experiences. Eric, do you have thoughts about that?
For me, the staggered quarter system worked splendidly, and I was astonished to learn of the changes to the co-op program (and year schedule) that occurred after my graduation in 1968.  After reading Bob Devine's discussion, I can understand some of the reasons, but it still seems like a loss to me.  I had never thought about how things worked (or didn't work) from the faculty standpoint.  My grandfather taught at Antioch for most of the time I knew him -- he seemed to have summers free, although as a senior professor he might have had advantages not available to everyone.

John Hevelin '68


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 09:17:52 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (erik (36invisible@gmail.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 09:18:11 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
In-Reply-To: <e32d90daf93936783e59900fa8566fc0@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <b79684bb9aeead8d263a1e772579a0f5@antiochians.org>


>Don't get me wrong.  I am not blaming the students.  I don't even have much contact with current students but the students from the past 10 or 20 years who are most vocal on the chats appear, with a few exceptions, politically naive, poorly educated with inadequate analytical and writing skills (which may be a function of the technology) and lack an understanding of both the business and academic worlds.  I am very bothered by the fact that they do not appear to be independent thinkers and seem to be easily led due to their susceptibility to politically leftist rhetoric. 
>Deb Goodman, class of 1983
Deb,

Seriously. You just insulted two decades of Antiochians and basically announced yourself more superior in all areas. Are you truly so conceited?

If this is indeed the case, and my inadequate reading skills are not failing me, I must say that you are by far one of the most toxic and morally disgusting people I've had the displeasure of 'reading' in recent memory. 

If indeed my inadequate reading skills are failing me, then ignore the previous paragraph. 

Enjoy your absolutely wonderful life. Truly.

-erik '97


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 10:46:50 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (Jack (jack1@mac.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 10:47:09 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Students From Japan
In-Reply-To: <b6aaf8dc0e9288fe71173c4217601d04@antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <da576be786fb119086cdefa0cc162596@antiochians.org>

There's a loose collection of Antioch grads in Japan, in the broadest sense of the term- many of whom worked with Harold Wright. I won't post names or contact info, I haven't seen any posts from any of them in this forum, but that will give you a general starting point if you want to research and dig. 

You might also want to petition that an "Asia" section be implemented in the Association Chapters section of this forum, along the lines of what currently exists for Europe.


>I am living in South Korea and have some extra time.  I am sure that no one has contacted all the exchange students from Kyoto that used to come to Antioch.  Many of them really loved the school. If any one has an idea how I can contact them please let me know.
>
>Thanks!
>Mackenzie


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 11:20:31 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (Travis Sanford (travissanford@msn.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 11:20:50 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
In-Reply-To: <e32d90daf93936783e59900fa8566fc0@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <fb5098b4c8ba81327317d32aba9c2a1a@www.antiochians.org>


>Though Steve could have taken a back seat since the announcement of his resignation, which was to be effective December 31, 2007, he continued to be an active participant in efforts to save the college and disseminate information to various parties by appearing at chapter meetings in other locales and, from what I understand, making himself available on campus.   I don't know of many people in his position who would do so.  I think it speaks very well of him and his commitment to Antioch.
I find this to be true. However I think that Steve has illustrated that while he has the ability within a buearacracy to advocate for his constituenciy. He has also illustrated that he has a poor understanding of the executive and ambassadorial functions of the president of a SPLAURC.

>For a host of reasons, Antioch College has been suffering for many years.  The College is constantly in a worrisome financial state and the academic programs have suffered because of it.  Antioch has also been having trouble attracting and retaining students for a very long time no matter what anybody says.  All of these things are connected.
You mean no matter what the evidence says right? Cuz the evidence suggest that while over all enrollment is falling it is not falling as fast as the declining numbers in the age cohort of 18-22 year olds. Moreover the retention rate at Antioch has in several sets of consecutive years been at a level equivalent to its peers, 80% and up. This seems to correspond with periods when there is longevity thus stability in leadership and noticed improvements in the infrastructure. IMHO Antioch's co-op program will always yield a slighlty lower rate of persistence than other SPLAURCs because students find other things, or people to keep them where they land rather than moving back to YSO.

>The BoT scheduled a web seminar (webinar) to communicate to all interested parties financial information in support of their decision to declare financial exigency.  This information was essential to our understanding of the situation and would have allowed us to make more intelligent decisions on how to proceed.  Unfortunately, the faculty prematurely filed a lawsuit against the Trustees effectively aborting that webinar.  The BoT were roundly criticized for waiting until the last minute to cancel the webinar.  I would like to remind everyone that in order for them to make that decision, they would have had to gather enough people to discuss the issue and consult with their lawyers.  They had less then two days to decide.  That being said, I don't like the way the initial decision to "suspend operations" was made or passed down.  One would have hoped the BoT would have at least consulted with some of the stakeholders before making that fateful decision.
Well, the point is moot because the AUBoT has agreed to turn over financial data to a committee of people approved by the AA to review the data. They will have to sighn non-disclosure statements so the data itself will not be in the public sphere (which in and of itself is a violation of the Board's own poliicy as stated on the web-site) but it will be used to formulate a plan. Was the faculty premature? I think not considering they had to act within a certain time frame to support their damage claim AND they needed to act, as the only stakeholder group with standing, to prevent the sales of assets or resources which might then make it impossible for any revival.
>I listened to hours of podcasts of the BoT meetings in their entirety (with the exception of the latter part of the open forum held on Saturday morning which I am still in the process of finishing).  I found it interesting but also disappointing.  Much of the support is in the form of emotion and that's fine but, truthfully, I don't think the presentation of the AB proposal to the BoT was as powerful as it should have been.  When a Trustee asked the AB Treasurer exactly how much cash we had raised to date (as opposed to pledged donations), our Treasurer was unable to give a dollar figure.  He mentioned he knew what the number was as of "last week" ($250,000) but he still had a lot of checks in his briefcase and would be meeting with a representative of the bank on the following day.  That looked very bad strategically in that the AB doesn't appear organized or super-competent.  I'm not mentioning this to be needlessly critical. I understand the entire AB is working very hard on
>volunteer time and I think that's wonderful but I do think we need to appear and be more organized and professional.  Furthermore, I wish the AB would act a bit more like a representative body.  By this, I don't mean they should prepare a business plan online with us, but communications from them are sorely lacking and I cannot understand why they don't solicit ideas for visioning and the like from the vast number of brilliant and competent alumni who are not even participating on this chat, for good reason.
I did too and it was apparent to me that the AB was purposefully avoided concrete detail because to do so would have been an invitation to get their ideas shot down. I believe that they moved to convince the AUBoT that they understand the situation from the BoT's POV. This is always the first step in a good neogtiation.

As for Rick Daly's comments about money: If you had asked the CFO of the U what the exact balance of the U's current account was I doubt he would know. As for the checks in the briefcase comment, Rick was going the next day to deposit those checks in the LOCAL bank in YSO. This has been a grass roots effort and the checks come in for small amounts in large numbers and to deposit all of those individually, with out the fast 12 key skills of a bank assistant, would be time consuming. Communication has been a frustrating issue. However once you access the world of the committees there is a lot more direct off-line communication. That is the way of things I guess. 

>I believe in what Antioch used to stand for.
What was that exactly? Does it not change with the needs and interests of the generations? The composition of the faculty? The iteration of the BoT and Administration?

>After participating on these chats, I don't know what Antioch currently stands for but if the chats are any indication, I don't like it.  Antioch College in its current morph seems more like an ongoing dress rehearsal for Lord of the Flies than a liberal arts college.  The culture seems stifling and I know this because when I post messages on the chat, I get private e-mails from people who say they agree with me but don't feel comfortable posting on the chats either because they work at the College or they don't want to be attacked as they think I have been for speaking out.  They are simply afraid.
It is so common a technique to claim private confidences to support ones otherwise unverifiable opinion that I don't need to say more. How could these chate be indicative of what Antioch stands for now or hwat the students or culture are like now, when the current students are rather a small cohort of those participating. Why is their participation limited? Fear? I rather doubt it. Access and changes and time and gearing up for fall, remember: even in this crisis the students have other things to worry about. Your Lord of the Flies analogy presumes that SPLAURCs are some kind of Forum of polite and civil backforth. I think that is simplistic. My anecdotal experience of other SPLAURCs is that they all have battles that erupt and consume a great deal of time and energy and are hardly civil. I compare this to game theory in economics: students are acting out parts trying to find what their real position is and figuring out what the position and knowledge of their peers is. I do not
mean to diminish the importance of their beliefs, but when they go out into the world they will develop a more moderate appriach to conflict based on what they have learned from their role playing and the normative influences of older peers.

>Don't get me wrong.  I am not blaming the students.  I don't even have much contact with current students but the students from the past 10 or 20 years who are most vocal on the chats appear, with a few exceptions, politically naive, poorly educated with inadequate analytical and writing skills (which may be a function of the technology) and lack an understanding of both the business and academic worlds.  I am very bothered by the fact that they do not appear to be independent thinkers and seem to be easily led due to their susceptibility to politically leftist rhetoric.
Well so I will take that personally as a 1994 graduate. I flip it to you Deb, it seems to me that you have a remarkably closed and narrow view of the business and academic worlds, if not a cynical one. I have found a wide variety of people on this forum who are able to articulate their positions with grace and wit. Moreover they have demonstrated the analytical ability to look past the menu of options put in front of them and look to visions and opportunities not dreamed of in the world of the AUBoT, or yours. Some I agree with, some I find fanciful and some I have spent more time researching and now agree with (strong envrio approach green planning, building and technology). It has been on these forums that financial quirks anbd sleight of hand have been indentified and used to further negotiations. It was here that contractual debt obligations were diswcovered which challenge the assumption that MacGregor would be a net positive for the college if a reunion occurede. See there are
several typos there because I am going fast trying to get this off before my kids wake up and demand 100% of my bandwidth. Did you ever think that leftist thinking may in fact be the independent POV at this point in history? We have neo-liberal economic and social theory creeping into the rhetoric of our own University with out even a shred of analysis or criticism. We live in a society that assigns the worth of an individual based on their net worth. Perhaps leftist liberation ideologies are the course the ones that inspire the critical and constructive spirit? And frankly, what rightist rhetoric would you like to hear? As I have said before, to the extent that libertarian thinking is leftist so is Antioch. 
>If, in answer to my prayers to the God I do not believe in, Steve Lawry does stick around to help the AB with the formation of an independent Antioch College Board and participate in fundraising and visioning with them, I'll pledge with my heart, soul and wallet and encourage everyone I know to the do the same.
If you don't believe in God, why do you believe in a Messiah? 

>If not, I'll fade away from this exercise in futility and remember what Piggy said in Lord of the Flies, "How can you expect to be rescued if you don't put first things first and act proper."
>
>To quote William Golding, "What was the sensible thing to do? There was no Piggy to talk sense. There was no solemn assembly for debate nor dignity of the conch."
>
>Sadly,
>Deb Goodman, class of 1983
Sez you Deb. This is not a futile effort. I never thought we would reach even the fund raising we have now. I never thought I would give as much time and money to Antioch. I never thought that I would form working relationships with several people I never really cared for on campus, I never thought that AUBoT would back off from their decision is made position even for a second. I believed it was all going to be a legal battle (still might be of course). The thing is, even if this effort fails (of which this forum is just one part) it will not have been futile just because it failed. Futility is acting when there is no chance of success.


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 11:32:15 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (hopeless (debra_good@yahoo.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 11:32:33 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
Message-ID: <225da161b1fcb10bf8399b8678caf6bd@www.antiochians.org>

Erik:

I was speaking about the students from the past 10 or 20 years *who are most vocal on the chats* so I would have to say you misconstrued the meaning of the sentence.  Reading comprehension skills?

Deb

>>Don't get me wrong.  I am not blaming the students.  I don't even have much contact with current students but the students from the past 10 or 20 years who are most vocal on the chats appear, with a few exceptions, politically naive, poorly educated with inadequate analytical and writing skills (which may be a function of the technology) and lack an understanding of both the business and academic worlds.  I am very bothered by the fact that they do not appear to be independent thinkers and seem to be easily led due to their susceptibility to politically leftist rhetoric.
>>Deb Goodman, class of 1983
>Deb,
>
>Seriously. You just insulted two decades of Antiochians and basically announced yourself more superior in all areas. Are you truly so conceited?
>
>If this is indeed the case, and my inadequate reading skills are not failing me, I must say that you are by far one of the most toxic and morally disgusting people I've had the displeasure of 'reading' in recent memory.
>
>If indeed my inadequate reading skills are failing me, then ignore the previous paragraph.
>
>Enjoy your absolutely wonderful life. Truly.
>
>-erik '97


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 11:37:23 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (Liza (eadler2001@yahoo.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 11:37:42 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] What will the BOT do?
Message-ID: <3773cf1156f80981b12025dfca893809@www.antiochians.org>


>For me, the staggered quarter system worked splendidly, and I was astonished to learn of the changes to the co-op program (and year schedule) that occurred after my graduation in 1968.  After reading Bob Devine's discussion, I can understand some of the reasons, but it still seems like a loss to me.  I had never thought about how things worked (or didn't work) from the faculty standpoint.  My grandfather taught at Antioch for most of the time I knew him -- he seemed to have summers free, although as a senior professor he might have had advantages not available to everyone.
>
>John Hevelin '68
Hi John,

The post of mine to which you responded was a follow-up to one in which I said 

>I always thought of co-op as an integral part of the post-Morgan Antioch education. And as Travis said in another thread, co-ops had a tremendous impact on many of our lives. I was shocked to hear that the requirement had been cut to 3 co-ops in only 3 locales.
Rowan responded with a comment to the effect that the co-op communities were not an idiotic idea. 

I wondered if perhaps I was making an erroneous assumption--based on ignorance of what the the co-op communities involved--that this new model had lost many of the advantages of the Antioch education I experienced. I also thought that changing to a trimester-based system involved a loss as well, but, again, I wasn't there, didn't know the rationale for the switch, and didn't experience it. 

Again, I didn't want to make assumptions based on ignorance of a system I hadn't experienced firsthand. 

Bob Devine's response crystallized a lot of things for me (and saddened me immensely). 

I don't think I was a better student than you, but I was in a hurry in those days. I completed high school in three years and Antioch in four. In retrospect, I wish I'd taken longer.

I, too, found my co-ops away an invaluable experience. I think they fostered a sense of independence and self-reliance that it would have taken me years to acquire otherwise. They played a tremendous part in making me the person I now am (for better or worse). 

What I found socially disruptive was not graduating in 4 years, but having to pick up and move every twelve weeks. And I think that the effects of doing that stayed with me for some time. (The disruptive aspects might have been exacerbated for me by the strikes of 73. I was on spring/summer co-op when the spring strike took place. By the time I made it back to campus, very few of the people I knew pre-strike were around.) What I was suggesting was that we _retain_ a certain number of away co-ops but also have an expectation of completing, say, two in Yellow Springs. 

This would enable people like me who find moving every quarter socially disruptive a chance to get to know their cohort a little more slowly. It would be easier for students on co-op to take, say, one class a quarter and more easily complete their studies in four years (with a staggered quarter system). We might be able to involve students in campus renovation in a way that was win-win financially for both the students and the college--and I think that participating in rebuilding Antioch (in any number of ways--not just renovating the buildings) would be tremendous in enhancing the sense of community. Just a thought. You are certainly free to disagree.

I'd still be interested to know if there was some sort of visionary rationale for the co-op communities or if, like the move to a trimester system, they were a compromise based on current realities.

Incidentally, while I can't speak to your grandfather's experience, I was on the faculty of a liberal arts college for some time. Their calendar involved two four-month semesters separated by a one month January winter study experience. I'm sure most of the students thought the faculty took the summers off, but I generally was putting in about 70 hours a week during the summers (doing research--which generally involved students in some way--but not formally teaching). I took maybe three weeks a year of genuine vacation.


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 12:02:19 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (erik (36invisible@gmail.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 12:02:37 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
In-Reply-To: <225da161b1fcb10bf8399b8678caf6bd@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <66ddda67257becdd93b99bc8b03f83fd@antiochians.org>


>I was speaking about the students from the past 10 or 20 years *who are most vocal on the chats* so I would have to say you misconstrued the meaning of the sentence.  Reading comprehension skills?
>
>Deb
Apparently so. Seems my comprehension of the subtext overshadowed my comprehension of the text.

A long and happy and healthy and prosperous life for you, Deb. 

-erik


From davidallenusa at yahoo.com  Sun Sep  2 12:42:32 2007
From: davidallenusa at yahoo.com (YAZZ ALLEN)
Date: Sun Sep  2 12:42:53 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Current undergrads at Antioch are wonderful!
In-Reply-To: <20070902064956.162496163CFA@w3.antioch.edu>
Message-ID: <732601.29459.qm@web52011.mail.re2.yahoo.com>



Sept. 2, 07
   
  Hi from Yazz (David Roger) Allen '66 (YazzAllen@Yahoo.Com)!
   
  Bob Devine is correct about current Antioch students being very intelligent, accomplished and impressive in all ways.
   
  I attended seminars last Fall 2006 in Washington DC for Antioch co-ops there part of the new "co-op community" program, and the young Antioch students who attended were quite wonderful.  
   
  Karen Mulhauser '65 helped organize the seminar program and used her many VIP Washington DC contacts to expose the Antioch students to Washington big shots and eye-crossing problems the national govt. faces in DC.  
   
  The Antioch kids were wonderful and impressed everyone who attended...after the seminars, people talked about how smart the 2006 Antiochians were.
   
  They are also much better dressed than we were in the 1960's.  I also found that true during the July 1, 2007 Antioch Alumni Wash. DC Alumni meeting which Antioch co-ops who are current students attended.  They were the best dressed people there (more than 100 people attended).  
   
  The times, they are a changing...but Antioch still attracts the smartest of the smartest.....smart people WANT to attend Antioch, realize how valuable Antioch is, seek it out.  That was always true.
   
  It still is.
   
  Best always,
  Yazz (David Roger) Allen '66
  (YazzAllen@Yahoo.Com)


 
    ---------------------
  Contact Yazz Allen directly via email at YazzAllen@Yahoo.Com, mail to 644 Shrewsbury Commons Ave., #239, Shrewsbury PA USA 17361...
  See my pro movie actors photos and recent credits by visiting WWW.IMDb.Com and inputting "Yazz Allen" in home page search box, then going to my home page for photos.  On the photo page, hit IMDb RESUME box/icon for recent credits/ resume details.
   
  "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world.  Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead (1901 - 1978)


       
---------------------------------
Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 13:05:49 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (Donald J. Davidson (donald.j.davidson@verizon.net))
Date: Sun Sep  2 13:06:07 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] What will the BOT do?
In-Reply-To: <405a7e48fa476fb3090fbd1c67eda3dc@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <98804110b5a53d55c8e9cae06d4872ca@www.antiochians.org>

In the nonsense about presidents of colleges, it might be useful to look back at our founder. In 1926, after about six years spent with Antioch students, Arthur Morgan became very dissatisfied with them. He was contemplating discharging half the students and maybe treating the faculty even so. So he went on vacation. 

Here's what Roy Talbert, author of F.D.R.'s Utopian, writes: 

?A note is in order here on the customs and manners of college presidents. It is, in fact, a lonely job. College administrators...are uniformly and profoundly unappreciated by faculty and students, who tend to regard them as superfluous to their several purposes. Morgan?s difficulties at Antioch were not substantially different from those of hundreds of other college heads, then and now. Most of them spend a large part of their time raising money. They are expected to provide the wherewithal for the college?s support, they are are seldom loved when they attempt to stay at home and run the place. There has probably never been a collegiate chief executive officer who did not know the value of an extended vacation or the virtue in occasionally firing a dean. The most important--sometimes the only--loyalty a president must absolutely maintain is that of his board of trustees.?

>From Roy Talbert, FDR?s Utopian: Arthur Morgan of the TVA (Jackson: University Press of Mississippi, 1987), p. 63.

For those who want a more extended look at the difficulties of the holder of the position circa 1960s and after, see Clark Kerr, The Uses of the University, 5th ed.  (Harvard University Press, 2001), pp. 22+. Kerr has a really funny take.


From eayres at comcast.net  Sun Sep  2 13:24:55 2007
From: eayres at comcast.net (E. Daniel Ayres)
Date: Sun Sep  2 13:25:33 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Digest "clipping?"
Message-ID: <000501c7ed86$2e51c5a0$8af550e0$@net>

Are there others out there who subscribe to this chat in digest form?  Do
you occasionally find part of the digest missing?  I'm not sure where the
"scanning" is being done which places a message at the foot of the body of
the digest message, but if it is happening on the "server side" as I suspect
that it is, there may not be enough memory buffer space for the scan to
process some of the longer digests.   I've also seen messages from the
scanning process indicating that the virus signature file is out of date,
but these are being dealt with (they come and go.)

 

I know that it is possible to use the web to read and respond to items in
this discussion, and will probably gradually shape my approach to keeping up
with what is going on by eliminating my subscription to an email digest if
this problem can't be fixed.  I'd just like to know if others are being
affected on the outside chance that I've overlooked something on my local
home network which also uses Symantec virus protection.

 

E. Daniel Ayres

734-395-9141 (cell)

http://home.comcast.net/~eayres

 

From eayres at comcast.net  Sun Sep  2 13:28:30 2007
From: eayres at comcast.net (E. Daniel Ayres)
Date: Sun Sep  2 13:29:08 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Body of "clipped" Digest
Message-ID: <000a01c7ed86$ae8d39c0$0ba7ad40$@net>

This is what I see when a received digest has problems.

 

>This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology.

 

>Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested
levels of >files were found.

 

 

>For more information on antivirus tips and technology, visit
http://ses.symantec.com/

 

 

E. Daniel Ayres

734-395-9141 (cell)

http://home.comcast.net/~eayres

 

From fbb6 at columbia.edu  Sun Sep  2 13:40:03 2007
From: fbb6 at columbia.edu (Freda B Birnbaum)
Date: Sun Sep  2 13:40:24 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Body of "clipped" Digest
In-Reply-To: <000a01c7ed86$ae8d39c0$0ba7ad40$@net>
References: <000a01c7ed86$ae8d39c0$0ba7ad40$@net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0709021337590.9851@banana.cc.columbia.edu>

On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, E. Daniel Ayres wrote:

> This is what I see when a received digest has problems.
>
>> This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology.
>
>> Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested
> levels of >files were found.

I'm wondering if that means there is WAAAAY too much recapitulating of the 
previous messages: recreating the ENTIRE correspondence in reverse, 8 
messages alter?

EDIT, EDIT, EDIT....

Freda Bluestone Birnbaum, '65
From theodora at imbris.com  Sun Sep  2 13:44:08 2007
From: theodora at imbris.com (Pam Olsen)
Date: Sun Sep  2 13:41:28 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Antioch today
In-Reply-To: <20070902064956.162496163CFA@w3.antioch.edu>
Message-ID: <C3004475.3131%theodora@imbris.com>



Deb Said:
> 
> After participating on these chats, I don't know what Antioch currently stands
> for but if the chats are any indication, I don't like it.  Antioch College in
> its current morph seems more like an ongoing dress rehearsal for Lord of the
> Flies than a liberal arts college.  The culture seems stifling and I know this
> because when I post messages on the chat, I get private e-mails from people
> who say they agree with me but don't feel comfortable posting on the chats
> either because they work at the College or they don't want to be attacked as
> they think I have been for speaking out.  They are simply afraid.
> 
> Don't get me wrong.  I am not blaming the students.  I don't even have much
> contact with current students but the students from the past 10 or 20 years
> who are most vocal on the chats appear, with a few exceptions, politically
> naive, poorly educated with inadequate analytical and writing skills (which
> may be a function of the technology) and lack an understanding of both the
> business and academic worlds.  I am very bothered by the fact that they do not
> appear to be independent thinkers and seem to be easily led due to their
> susceptibility to politically leftist rhetoric.

My response;

Deb, there are occasions on the forum when I feel people attempt to
intimidate, and have written about that.

however, I don't think we from years past (some of us from several
generations past) are in any position to judge Antioch today.  We're not of
the same generation, we don't interact with them every day, etc.

I have confidence that if we can simply save the structure of Antioch
College as it is today, a college, with a governing board that cares about
it and is close to it, with the traditional values of Antioch, the College
can fairly easily deal with any "cultural" issues.  Expanding programs,
maybe an educational seminar periodically on what valuing diversity really
means and how do we best live it out....it wouldn't take a lot, I don't
think, if the community there now considers it an issue.

Pam  

From fkraus at antioch-college.edu  Sun Sep  2 13:27:05 2007
From: fkraus at antioch-college.edu (Fred Kraus)
Date: Sun Sep  2 13:41:36 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 3
Message-ID: <fc.005b8ffc02d81d873b9aca00bbbb3327.2d81d88@mcgregor.edu>

We have closed the office for the long weekend holiday.  I will not be
responding to my e-mail until my return on Tuesday, September 4.  I hope
you also have a great holiday weekend.

From amaruyama at antioch-college.edu  Sun Sep  2 13:27:05 2007
From: amaruyama at antioch-college.edu (Aimee Maruyama)
Date: Sun Sep  2 13:41:37 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 3
Message-ID: <fc.005b8ffc02d81d8e3b9aca00bbbb3327.2d81d8f@mcgregor.edu>

We have closed the office for the long weekend holiday.  I will not be
responding to my e-mail until my return on Tuesday, September 4.  I hope
you also have a great holiday weekend.

From rgrimes at antioch-college.edu  Sun Sep  2 13:27:11 2007
From: rgrimes at antioch-college.edu (Risa Grimes)
Date: Sun Sep  2 13:41:41 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Re: Alumni-chat Digest, Vol 7, Issue 3
Message-ID: <fc.005b8ffc02d81dac3b9aca00bbbb3327.2d81dad@mcgregor.edu>

We have closed the office for the long weekend holiday.  I will not be
responding to my e-mail until my return on Tuesday, September 4.  I hope
you also have a great holiday weekend.

From fbb6 at columbia.edu  Sun Sep  2 13:41:22 2007
From: fbb6 at columbia.edu (Freda B Birnbaum)
Date: Sun Sep  2 13:41:44 2007
Subject: oooops Re: [Alumni-chat] Body of "clipped" Digest
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0709021337590.9851@banana.cc.columbia.edu>
References: <000a01c7ed86$ae8d39c0$0ba7ad40$@net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0709021337590.9851@banana.cc.columbia.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0709021340200.9851@banana.cc.columbia.edu>

On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Freda B Birnbaum wrote:

> I'm wondering if that means there is WAAAAY too much recapitulating of 
> the previous messages: recreating the ENTIRE correspondence in reverse, 
> 8 messages alter?
>
> EDIT, EDIT, EDIT....
>
> Freda Bluestone Birnbaum, '65

And, PROOFREAD, PROOFREAD, PROOFREAD... spell-checkers can't do it all!

Sorry 'bout that...

FBB '65
From theodora at imbris.com  Sun Sep  2 13:57:38 2007
From: theodora at imbris.com (Pam Olsen)
Date: Sun Sep  2 13:53:57 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] the calendar
In-Reply-To: <20070902174129.4DF956165974@w3.antioch.edu>
Message-ID: <C300479F.3136%theodora@imbris.com>



\John said:  
> 
> For me, the staggered quarter system worked splendidly, and I was astonished
> to learn of the changes to the co-op program (and year schedule) that occurred
> after my graduation in 1968.  After reading Bob Devine's discussion, I can
> understand some of the reasons, but it still seems like a loss to me.  I had
> never thought about how things worked (or didn't work) from the faculty
> standpoint.  My grandfather taught at Antioch for most of the time I knew him
> -- he seemed to have summers free, although as a senior professor he might
> have had advantages not available to everyone.


john, I also had no problem with the year round, five year schedule.  I
liked being on campus sometimes in the summer.  And liked going year
round--why go home and waste the summer, or have to scramble for a job when
a zillion other college students were looking for one, too?  I liked just
keeping it within the co-op strujcture.   Nor was five years a big deal.
MOving so much was kind of a pain in some ways, exciting in others, but the
jobs were great, and when I graduated, I had two years of work experience,
which served me well when applying for jobs later on.

I would imagine that going two quarters a year instead of three could be
structured to be a financial advantage, insofar as it would keep tuition
much lower each year than trying to pay for three quarters somewhere else.
This would have to be marketed this way, though.  I know my grandmother, who
paid for my college, thought it was taking me an awfully long time and was
being too expensive, and I pointed out to her that I had actually not had to
pay for any more quarters than my sister who went to (a more traditional)
college before me.   That settled her down a bit.

Pam 

From theodora at imbris.com  Sun Sep  2 14:11:12 2007
From: theodora at imbris.com (Pam Olsen)
Date: Sun Sep  2 14:07:32 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] co-op calendar
In-Reply-To: <20070902174129.4DF956165974@w3.antioch.edu>
Message-ID: <C3004ACF.3138%theodora@imbris.com>



Liza said:

> 
> What I found socially disruptive was not graduating in 4 years, but having to
> pick up and move every twelve weeks. And I think that the effects of doing
> that stayed with me for some time. (The disruptive aspects might have been
> exacerbated for me by the strikes of 73. I was on spring/summer co-op when the
> spring strike took place. By the time I made it back to campus, very few of
> the people I knew pre-strike were around.) What I was suggesting was that we
> _retain_ a certain number of away co-ops but also have an expectation of
> completing, say, two in Yellow Springs.
> 
> This would enable people like me who find moving every quarter socially
> disruptive a chance to get to know their cohort a little more slowly. It would
> be easier for students on co-op to take, say, one class a quarter and more
> easily complete their studies in four years (with a staggered quarter system).
> We might be able to involve students in campus renovation in a way that was
> win-win financially for both the students and the college--and I think that
> participating in rebuilding Antioch (in any number of ways--not just
> renovating the buildings) would be tremendous in enhancing the sense of
> community. Just a thought. You are certainly free to disagree.


I'm with you, Liza.  The only thing that was troublesome about the co-op
program for me was all that moving and coming back, often, to a completely
different social group.  I think having more co-op opportunities in YSO is a
good idea, and I'll bet the Village businesses would be open to it at this
point, too.  Plus, we could get some local college businesses going,
perhaps.  

From theodora at imbris.com  Sun Sep  2 14:15:06 2007
From: theodora at imbris.com (Pam Olsen)
Date: Sun Sep  2 14:11:25 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] the email digest
In-Reply-To: <20070902174129.4DF956165974@w3.antioch.edu>
Message-ID: <C3004BB9.3139%theodora@imbris.com>


Dan said:  
> 
> This is what I see when a received digest has problems.
> 
> 
> 
>> This message has been processed by Symantec's AntiVirus Technology.
> 
> 
> 
>> Unknown00000000.data was not scanned for viruses because too many nested
> levels of >files were found.
> 
> 
> 
> 


I get the digest, Dan.  Haven't had any such problems with it, and my
computer's memory isn't up to many internet tasks these days.

Pam

From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 18:10:22 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (hopeless (debra_good@yahoo.com))
Date: Sun Sep  2 18:10:40 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Lord of the Flies
In-Reply-To: <66ddda67257becdd93b99bc8b03f83fd@antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <29dd7314fe4eff0c6af675b95ffbf4c2@antiochians.org>

In my opinion, it is always better to read what is actually written before one makes assumptions about subtext.

Deb '83

>>I was speaking about the students from the past 10 or 20 years *who are most vocal on the chats* so I would have to say you misconstrued the meaning of the sentence.  Reading comprehension skills?
>>
>>Deb
>Apparently so. Seems my comprehension of the subtext overshadowed my comprehension of the text.
>
>A long and happy and healthy and prosperous life for you, Deb.
>
>-erik


From sjr5 at nyu.edu  Sun Sep  2 21:22:45 2007
From: sjr5 at nyu.edu (Sonia Jaffe Robbins)
Date: Sun Sep  2 21:26:24 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
In-Reply-To: <011001c7ebd5$c93da410$5bb8ec30$@net>
References: <00c401c7eb6e$6f990e20$4ecb2a60$@net>
	<6b3487d7aae5c806f485c28c9ff169ac@antiochians.org>
	<011001c7ebd5$c93da410$5bb8ec30$@net>
Message-ID: <a06100500c30110dcefc3@[216.165.122.170]>

>
>[jdc] Listen to Rush for one week and you'll get it. He has a large liberal
following.

I've listened to Limbaugh on occasion just so I know what the "enemy" 
is thinking. But eventually he makes me sick or too angry. Humor? Is 
it funny for feminists to be labeled "feminazis"? Is it political 
humor when he lies? (Don't ask me for examples... I haven't listened 
in a long time.) As for Air America, it's alive and well in New York 
City and San Diego at least, and must be in other cities as well. And 
while I like many of its programs, some go a bit too far off the deep 
left end. Randy Rhodes (sp?), for example, strikes me as a Rush 
Limbaugh of the left -- i.e., don't believe anything she says unless 
you can find two backup sources.
-- 
Sonia Jaffe Robbins
Antioch College, '60-'62, '64
sjr5@nyu.edu		srobbins@reedbusiness.com
http://www.neww.org.pl       http://www.nyu.edu/classes/copyXediting

*******************
"If you do not let the tie run come to the plate, you can never lose."
--Mark Harris, in one of the Southpaw novels
From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 21:44:08 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (Katherine Anne Stansbury (kathycallaway@whiz.to))
Date: Sun Sep  2 21:44:25 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] co-op calendar
In-Reply-To: <C3004ACF.3138%theodora@imbris.com>
Message-ID: <3f0251a24f4d659e8d50c783125da1fd@antiochians.org>


>all that moving and coming back, often, to a completely different social group.
In the mid-twentieth century one was assigned to A Div or B Div, the Divs rotated by quarter, and one went all the way through with the same cohort. This system seems to have ameliorated the sense of disruption you experienced.  An additional advantage was that it maximized efficient use of resources.
I think we should try it again.


From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Sun Sep  2 22:53:51 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (Katherine Anne Stansbury (kathycallaway@whiz.to))
Date: Sun Sep  2 22:54:08 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
In-Reply-To: <4250d415c59cc87dc98d016c9fc98e59@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <202d971c16d5f53e6e9a3164c34a7b8c@antiochians.org>


>Is it possible to move the Alumni Chat into the C-Shop section?
Please don't. C-Shop is fun and light and warm and friendly.


From Sistersara at aol.com  Mon Sep  3 00:38:32 2007
From: Sistersara at aol.com (Sistersara@aol.com)
Date: Mon Sep  3 00:39:03 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] Inclusion?
Message-ID: <cb4.1a5ba92b.340ce9c8@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/2/2007 8:26:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  sjr5@nyu.edu 
writes:

I've  listened to Limbaugh on occasion just so I know what the "enemy" 
is  thinking. But eventually he makes me sick or too angry. Humor? Is 
it funny  for feminists to be labeled "feminazis"? Is it political 
humor when he  lies? (Don't ask me for examples... I haven't listened 
in a long time.)  


Well, if you like Limbaugh, you should live in central Indiana.  When  I was 
on the Alumni Board, and driving down from Minnesota to the thrice yearly  
meetings, there was this black zone, or total Limbaugh area from where you ran  
out of Chicago radio stations, and emerged from the dark zone where you could  
again find an NPR station or the Indinapolis station that did rather tepid  
classical music.  
 
Used to be you could drive cross country, and listen in for half an hour or  
so to really local stuff -- you know the announcements of who was in the  
hospital, and who had delivered a baby, and then discussion of a local city  
council meeting and all.  It was a way of lightly taking a sample of a  segment of 
America.  But Clear Channel and all the rest of them ended all  that, making 
for about 140 miles of only Limbaugh like him or not.  I  cannot stand more 
than about two minutes of him at a time, and then I need a 6  month interval.  
Now North of Chicago you have real choices.   Wisconsin Public Radio does lots 
of local production, but carries some NPR  programs, Iowa Public Radio is also 
somewhat more local, but Minnesota Public  Radio is a total empire, with three 
channels (many more when everything gets  digital) and you get a huge 
selection of up-scale programs.  From Northern  Illinois along the Mississippi North, 
you can hear all three and enjoy.  So  if you don't like Limbaugh, that is 
where you should try to live.  If your  bridge over the Mississippi falls down, 
it is the one certain place that the  next morning they will be ready with 
hour long programs on the chemistry of  metal fatigue in Highway bridges, 
followed by cost and aesthetics of design of  modern bridges, then followed by an 
hour's review of funding of bridges and  Highways by the Minnesota Legislature 
over the past 20 years, followed by a  critique of the local and national 
Television coverage of the Bridge  Collapse.  (Anyone want to know why Garrison 
Keillor calls us all "above  average" -- we work at it.)    



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
From alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org  Mon Sep  3 01:56:09 2007
From: alumni-chat_forum at antiochians.org (john_hevelin (bwotte@rexx.com))
Date: Mon Sep  3 01:56:25 2007
Subject: [Alumni-chat] What will the BOT do?
In-Reply-To: <3773cf1156f80981b12025dfca893809@www.antiochians.org>
Message-ID: <6d08e9a2af22d861dae64505113a1531@www.antiochians.org>

Hi, Liza,

>Hi John,
>
>The post of mine to which you responded was a follow-up to one in which I said
>
>>I always thought of co-op as an integral part of the post-Morgan Antioch education. And as Travis said in another thread, co-ops had a tremendous impact on many of our lives. I was shocked to hear that the requirement had been cut to 3 co-ops in only 3 locales.
>Rowan responded with a comment to the effect that the co-op communities were not an idiotic idea.
I wouldn't call it an "idiotic idea."  Personally, I wouldn't have wanted that much structure to my co-op experiences, but I can understand others finding such a community beneficial.  I liked the loose, informal relations that often developed amongst co-ops in the same city, sometimes as friends or roommates or just a comfortable network of mutual support.  Earlier posts on this subject have described co-ops as just being thrown into a new city to find their way alone.  I don't recollect that -- I seem to recall meetings of co-ops destined for the same city as a way to form contacts and support groups.  I seem to recall a lot of support prior to leaving campus.

>What I found socially disruptive was not graduating in 4 years, but having to pick up and move every twelve weeks.
Personally, I found it invigorating and stimulating, but I know that many people shared your discomfort.  Students used to joke about graduates getting the "urge for going" every three months.  :)  I do know that it was good preparation for a life that has had sudden, unpredictable dislocations.

>What I was suggesting was that we _retain_ a certain number of away co-ops but also have an expectation of completing, say, two in Yellow Springs.... This would enable people like